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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The IBC betting game - realtime 2k or more out of RAW files - How many?

gunleik said:
BTW.
I know RAW is coming, I just wanted to guess about how many in addition to Scratch that would be able to show realtime playback of RAW @ 1080 or more.
Click to expand...

Without transcoding? None. You are not counting FCP and maybe Premiere, right? Unless Red talks to Iridas?

mmost said:
All they want to know is why they don't have it yet, and why those who do haven't written completely bug free, user friendly versions of their software and released it yet - even though they've only had ALPHA code for about 2 weeks.
Click to expand...

Mmost, I responded via PM. I agree, and disagree.

People are not criticizing features of an Alpha SDK.

People are criticizing the fact that 3rd parties had such low priority that a year after the camera was released, Red's SDK is still in Alpha.

DV was a big jump, and couldn't be handled by desktop computers at full quality at its release either. Then there was the whole crazy Firewire thing the developers had to wrap their heads around too.

lunacie said:
Because what's the point of building a better camera if the RAW debayers are not doing it justice?

Red quality is, like it or not, tied to post processing.
Click to expand...

So are Nikon and Canon DSLRs. But I don't see a lot of users using the Nikon or Canon-provided software...

lunacie said:
Much of the time, when I read or hear complaints about Red image quality, it involves footage that was handled sub-optimally in post.
Click to expand...

Because Red doesn't provide good tools yet. Maybe they should open up to 3rd parties and things will be handled better.

lunacie said:
It's hard enough to get people to adopt an appropriate workflow for Red, now imagine having a flood of products out, some of which may be using debayer algorithms that don't do the camera justice.
Click to expand...

What kind of flood? It's not like there are 1000 frikkin' online packages.

There are about a dozen important ones. All of them care about quality.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
joelnet said:
Gotta go with Bruce on this one. RED would be better off letting the codec and decoder code into the wild and certifying options they felt were good enough after the fact. As users we're going to decide if the image quality is up to snuff because we can verify everything against REDCINE/RED ALERT.

Not only that, I'm positive average users will do side by side tests that will reveal any weaknesses in any product and that manufacturer will get the message FAST.

The whole story up until now was wait for "build 16"...

This whole protect the customer thing sounds like spin to me. It's like no RGB curves in RedCine was to protect us from ruining our images. Come on.
Click to expand...

the certifying idea would have been a good compromise.....
let red decides what they think is acceptable and then certify it....do we think Iridas and Cineform would have failed?
If someone makes a substandard debayer...then Red can wash it's hands of it.
 
I am at least expecting to see these three:

Nucoda:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18302

Iridas:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18567&highlight=speedgrade

Matrix:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17623

I am not sure if any of these are ready to deliver, though...

I will expect to see some sort of pimped out Premiere solution doing some sort of realtime playback through sdi. If it's any good? Dunno.

So that makes Scratch + 4.

You're right. I am not expecting a lot from Apple these days, but as Offhollywood is constantly hinting: I'd love to be surprised!

The new nVidea driver mojo thingy - CUDA - ("new" on Mac platform, that is) could hint @ better times to come.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18012

Then you have stuff like this coming into the equation:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16739

And then we have the "Unknown geek" solving some riddle.

All in all I guess IBC will be RED'er than ever and I hope to see some competition in the realtime field.

Gunleik
 
Bruce Allen said:
There are about a dozen important ones. All of them care about quality.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...


As a camera owner, I'd like to see Red succeed also but it's not clear what your POV is.

What do you have invested in red workflows that makes you so opinionated about what red does? I'd like to understand where your criticism is coming from.
 
luki said:
Mark,
Get on a SCRATCH system. Load up two clips - one at B15, one at B16. Run SCRATCH in debug mode. Play both clips. When you play the clips, the per-frame decode time is put into the SCRATCH log files. We have done these tests with two camera pointing at the same source - one camera loaded with B15, one with B16. The difference is trivial.
(...)
Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
Click to expand...

But Scratch runs directly on the RAW layer... Or am i wrong?

And my GUESS (!!!) is that the lesser noise of B16, is mostly happening in post (or the processing needed to achieve it, to be more precise). That would most likely account for the very small hit in Scratch.

The processing hit comes in other software, not in Scratch.
I haven't measured it, though.

Again:
I really love Scratch. Going to IBC to see, use, talk and be sold Scratch with two people here :)

But Scratch is having some (well deserved, I don't say otherways) advantages.

For the format, though - the opening up of RAW will be where shit hits the fan even harder. New businessmodels all over the place... (as if RED hasn|t already triggered that. I know! :) )

Cineform did a poor job on their first debayering attempt, but a pretty good one after getting scolded by Graeme. It takes an effort, but it's possible - it seems.

RED is not a software company - they say, but they still do amazing software tricks, and I guess again: A lot of them with the help of Assimilate...

I haven't seen ANY of these discussions in connection with SI fora. I guess that this is a kind of proof to the REDs success more than anything else :)

But SI came up with a solution that works in a multitude of systems off the bat - through cineform. I do NOT say that cineform is a better solution. Not at all. Haven't tried it. But it is a conceptually different approach.

That said. REDs has been more successfull. At least around here...

Cheers.
 
reality said:
As a camera owner, I'd like to see Red succeed also but it's not clear what your POV is.

What do you have invested in red workflows that makes you so opinionated about what red does? I'd like to understand where your criticism is coming from.
Click to expand...

Going to do a 2-week Red shoot in Japan in the end of Sept.

Have some of the best editors in the world lined up to help me with the edit. They'd like it if I used Avid.

Have an amazing sound designer / re-recording mixer lined up with Pro Tools HD rig for sound design, one of the best sound stages in the world lined up for the mix, etc. He'd like it if I used Avid.

Boy would it be nice if RedCine supported DNxHD.

That help? I could talk about how much FCP sucked on previous Red projects (which are on the Red showreel) but let's focus on the positive and the future.

Sorry, this is OT, but you asked a personal question.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
mmost said:
Even Red is calling the current SDK an "Alpha" release. In the world I come from, Alpha is a first experimental developer build, not something that is released to anyone who isn't either a part of the coding team, the company writing the software, or the very top tier of vendor partners - who would be given the Alpha software with an NDA to sign, and a promise not to use it for any commercial development. Even a Beta release (in my world) carries similar limitations. Only in the world of Red does everyone who ever touched a camera get told about Alpha releases - and as a result, you get threads like this one - where nobody seems to understand exactly what is meant by development, alpha, beta, or anything else. All they want to know is why they don't have it yet, and why those who do haven't written completely bug free, user friendly versions of their software and released it yet - even though they've only had ALPHA code for about 2 weeks..
Click to expand...


Post of the decade.
 
Offhollywood,
I have never seen anything RED out of BETA, all is rushed from A to B to Release and still should be A
 
Bruce Allen said:
Have some of the best editors in the world lined up to help me with the edit. They'd like it if I used Avid.
Click to expand...

So use Avid. I can point you to several shops in Tokyo that run SCRATCH or SCRATCH-CINE. Have them make tapes, or layoff from SDI out of SCRATCH to SDI in of Adrenaline or Mojo. Export an ALE from SCRATCH and use that to create subclips from the digitized master clip in Avid.

That is a 1:1 workflow for creating Avid media.

Bruce Allen said:
Boy would it be nice if RedCine supported DNxHD.
Click to expand...

Boy wouldn't it be nice if Avid didn't charge per-unit licensing fees for every single seat of a product that contains DNxHD rendering technology. (I am not speaking about REDCINE here by the way, but from my experience with SCRATCH.)

If you are dead-set on using free tools for your 2-week professional international shoot with some of the best editors in the world, then you do have some issues to work out.

I'll pick on my friends at Plaster City for a minute. For months now, they have been generating master tapes along with ALE files for Avid workflow. Works seamlessly, and makes for a very smooth Avid workflow for editorial, and into conform and finishing.

Again - just because the tools you want in a perfect world aren't there doesn't mean the tools don't exist.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Gunleik, I'll PM you to avoid further derailing your poor thread!

And Mark, that's not fair. We're not complaining about Alpha stuff.

We're complaining about key promised features not being there a year after the camera's release.

If you look at the "workflow" diagram on Red's own page there is an arrow that points from RedCine to Avid.

One would think that would mean RedCine would export Avid-compatible formats.

If RED didn't talk about or release Alpha or Beta stuff at all we'd still be saying "the camera's been out a year - where on earth is everything? This is slower than your competitors"

I think RED talks about Alpha and Beta stuff because it helps them sell more cameras.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Going to do a 2-week Red shoot in Japan in the end of Sept.

Have some of the best editors in the world lined up to help me with the edit. They'd like it if I used Avid.

Have an amazing sound designer / re-recording mixer lined up with Pro Tools HD rig for sound design, one of the best sound stages in the world lined up for the mix, etc. He'd like it if I used Avid.

Boy would it be nice if RedCine supported DNxHD.

That help? I could talk about how much FCP sucked on previous Red projects (which are on the Red showreel) but let's focus on the positive and the future.

Sorry, this is OT, but you asked a personal question.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...


Doing an avid workflow is not a problem. I've been involved with a few red projects that edited on avid. I believe some major projects have also like Knowing although someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Micheal Phillips has already said they're working with Red but remember it took Avid how long to get support for other codecs?

There are tons of people out there making stuff work, rather than incessantly demanding that red do it their way because they know better.
They might or they might not but if Red can get this far, then I think they probably good reasons to take their own path. The whole spoiled child thing gets really tiring to read over and over. I'd rather hear about all the different ways people are getting the job done like Mike Most does. Thanks Mike!
 
luki said:
So use Avid. I can point you to several shops in Tokyo that run SCRATCH or SCRATCH-CINE. Have them make tapes, or layoff from SDI out of SCRATCH to SDI in of Adrenaline or Mojo. Export an ALE from SCRATCH and use that to create subclips from the digitized master clip in Avid.

That is a 1:1 workflow for creating Avid media.
Click to expand...

That's a lot more convoluted "workflow" than what Red has on their homepage.

Pity the one on Red's homepage doesn't work right now.

I think I'll just wait for RedCine to work with DNxHD.

luki said:
If you are dead-set on using free tools for your 2-week professional international shoot with some of the best editors in the world, then you do have some issues to work out.
Click to expand...

Who said "professional" international shoot?

This is just a fun personal project. Short art film. Budget considerably under $10,000 including airfare.

The professional stuff in the future (shoots for movie titles, etc) I obviously can't talk about.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Thanks.

To put this thread On Topic again... :)

There are a few coming to the party (according to themselves) @ IBC.
Anyone aware of any more than the once I mentioned?

Nucoda
Iridas
Matrix

I, myself am a bit curious if they can really pull it off at the current stage. I thought Scratch was the only viable option, for a while still.

And Bruce - I agree, you can have pro|s work on no budget stuff. Happens all the time.
With RED the no-budget budget has gone down compared to film, either way you look at it.
There is a workflow - without Scratch. It's like the workflow with film...
BUT the RAW idea has introduced some very sexy possibilities... We all want that. Scratch or another way.

Scratch is really a hefty tool, if you can access it.
And the realtime playback to tape or an orher computer with SDI recording options is counterintuitive, but the fastest way still. There are some quirks for final delivery that route. But it's very stable and good. AND it works.

I'd argue that it is a lot cheaper than the (Redcine/Redline) transcoding route for outputting online or offline files for any project longer than 2 minutes...
 
Bruce Allen said:
That's a lot more convoluted "workflow" than what Red has on their homepage.

Pity the one on Red's homepage doesn't work right now.

I think I'll just wait for RedCine to work with DNxHD.
Click to expand...

Convoluted?

1) Link SDI out of SCRATCH to SDI in of Adrenaline
2) Hit Record on Adrenaline. Hit Play on SCRATCH.
3) Trim master clip to FFOP, and assign recordTC to match SCRATCH.
4) Export ALE from SCRATCH.
5) Use ALE to create subclips in Avid.

Really not that hard.

And also - it's a 1:1 workflow for generating Avid media. Who cares how complicated it is??? This is post-production, and solving these problems is what we get paid to do!

Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick two.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Maybe:
Adobe
Avid
Filmlight
Discreet
DVS
Fusion
Nuke
and ?

I would love to see who signed up for the SDK.
 
I would like to use Red on everything my company shoots. But if I did that and only had RedCine and Red Alert as tools I would go out of business. There is no doubt that Scratch Cine would work for me. It would give me the same basic workflow I have for our VariCam, real time playback from deck to NLE. But my preference is CineForm. I want to edit 4K RAW. The SDK has blocked direct transforming to CineForm RAW. Transcode times from B15 to CF RAW were 12 FPS. Now with the SDK full debayer must be done first which reduces the transcode time to 2 or 3 FPS. That's four to five times longer. I will be using CineForm proxies. They are created faster than real time. But it is just a shame that we are denied direct transcode to RAW.
 
Mark Crabtree said:
The SDK has blocked direct transforming to CineForm RAW. Transcode times from B15 to CF RAW were 12 FPS. Now with the SDK full debayer must be done first which reduces the transcode time to 2 or 3 FPS. That's four to five times longer. I will be using CineForm proxies. They are created faster than real time. But it is just a shame that we are denied direct transcode to RAW.
Click to expand...

That might be a transcode issue because a beta DI tool I'm testing with is getting closer to 15 fps with the SDK. Maybe Cineform hasn't optimized their usage of the SDK yet?

I wish I could say who the beta was for but legal agreements for large companies are scary.
 
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