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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The IBC betting game - realtime 2k or more out of RAW files - How many?

Gunleik Groven

Gunleik Groven

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Time for IBC.

The big questions are:
1. How many systems will show realtime playback of RAW files @ 2k or more without any transcoding to 4:4:4 RGB @ full debayer.

2. How many of these are ready to deliver systems @ once

3. Is there a way NOT to make the SDK cripple realtime playback?

4. Will anyone have a 4k realtime solution without transcoding?

My guess is that:
Scratch, Iridas, Assimilate, Matrix and possibly some AVID and Adobe system will be showed (@ least up to 1080)

FCP will manifest self as the offline and only offline tool, while others (AVID/Adobe) will have taken the RAW workflow into account.

Assimilate will possibly have some nice new tricks in the delivery/playback part of Scratch

Some crazy dude has put together a 10000 euro system that plays out @ 2k through SDI with AES audio, where you can install the software of your choice.

IBC is going to be a lot more RED focused than anyone could have imagined two years ago.

My 2c
 
gunleik said:
FCP will manifest self as the offline and only offline tool, while others (AVID/Adobe) will have taken the RAW workflow into account.
Click to expand...

Not sure how Avid will be able to do the RAW thing if Red doesn't give them access to the file format. Red are helping Adobe out, so I expect it from them.

That said, Avid has very good 16-bit effects. So maybe they can just convert convert Red RAW footage to 16-bit linear on the fly and do all color-correction, white balance etc on the 16-bit RGB image?

Not sure how far the SDK allows you to do that... and I'm about to sign the license for the SDK, so I guess after that I won't be able to tell you?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Sounds likely. But the big thing on the horizont is not really EPIC, but Scarlet.

The implication is (or coud be) RAW as the new "DV-workflow", and that everybody, her aunt, grandma and poor old uncle Scrooge will need to playback and edit RAW in iMovie... If the format is to take oer the world (as Jim seems to have a qualified idea that could be the case...) native r3d playback and editing is the key for that to happen... Assimilate could argue that we don't need/want that, but that is not true... (I LOVE Scratch by the way, but that's besides the main point). The big equalizer is r3d playback, editing and correcting.

The key to all this is RAW access for all those who wants it. Won't happen untill the Assimilate deal times out, but it seems that when one can playback SD from Premiere already with the beta plug, there is only a matter of more computing power before one can playback 1080 wia the CPU.

If there isn't some kind of hard switch in the SDK switching off realtime playback beyond a certain level. Sounds like an unlikely and very bad idea...
 
gunleik said:
The implication is (or coud be) RAW as the ne "DV-workflow", and that everybody, her aunt, grandma and poor old uncle Scrooge will need to playback and edit RAW in iMovie... If the format is to take oer the world (as Jim seems to have a qualified idea that could be the case...) native r3d playback and editing is the key for that to happen... Assimilate could argue that we don't need/want that, but that is not true... (I LOVE Scratch by the way, but that's besides the main point). The big equalizer is r3d playback, editing and correcting.
Click to expand...

100% agree. DV was successful because the format was published and all developers were allowed to read it.

gunleik said:
The key to all this is RAW access for all those who wants it. Won't happen untill the Assimilate deal times out, but it seems that when one can playback SD from Premiere already with the beta plug
Click to expand...

I'd say that is not in the SDK. That is a bonus written by Red specially for Adobe.

Unless Red changes their attitude, I don't expect similar from Avid for a while.

And it's not primarily an "allocation of resources" thing. There are a ton of things Red could be doing now that require no resources.

It's all in Red's hands. Maybe they are shorting Avid stock, or just love Apple and Adobe (they have to, if they are ever going to make a DSLR). I don't know.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
gunleik said:
3. Is there a way NOT to make the SDK cripple realtime playback?
Click to expand...

Yes there is. Time.

I know it may be weird for me to be supporting the SDK, but...

I know how hard Deanan, Rob, and others at RED have been working on building something for everyone. There is nothing "crippled" about the SDK, as that implies it was done on purpose. They are building something that will be good for everyone, and that takes time. The first steps they took are the ones that allowed the SDK to be released when it was.

They are working hard on expanding it, and I'm sure soon the SDK will have RAW access.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Why do they need to spend all of this time working on a SDK?

Why not just release the file format and some sample code and go on to building better cameras?

Red has proven that workflow and software support is not their strong suit. They should leave that to companies who specialize in this.

(yes, Assimilate very much included!)

EDIT: just to be clear, no camera company (motion or still) is that good at workflow and software. But they are more open than Red, so it doesn't matter.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
B16 encrypts the R3D. Why?

Encryption means more time required for the CPU to both de-encrypt and debayer.

The SDK does not allow direct conversion to other RAW formats such as CineForm. Why?

Forcing users to debayer first cuts transcode times from 12FPS to 3FPS.

Since workflow is the biggest obsticle for wider adoption of the Red One camera can someone explain why the SDK has tied our hands this way?
 
Again: I really love Scratch and we are coming to IBC to look at and talk with you guys.

BUT there's nothing logical in NOT letting all software that want to, playback the RAW files without transcoding.

I accept that @ the moment, the key is GPU acceleration. But we all know that the RED can scale and transcode to 1080, so what is needed is sorta the same debayer and playback engine which is inside the RED ONE... :)

Is that GPU accelerated? :)
Dunno. But it's not dependant on a 16 disk RAID-0 and the harware can be carried in a suitcase :)
 
gunleik said:
The implication is (or coud be) RAW as the new "DV-workflow", and that everybody, her aunt, grandma and poor old uncle Scrooge will need to playback and edit RAW in iMovie...
Click to expand...

Or they will be happy with REDCODE RGB. Just like your aunt and grandmother, and to my surprise a whole lot of other people, shoots JPEG on their new DSLR and have no idea of what RAW is all about. :wink:
 
Bruce Allen said:
Why do they need to spend all of this time working on a SDK? Why not just release the file format and some sample code and go on to building better cameras?
Click to expand...

Because the file format changes fairly regularly. You saw it from B15 to B16.

So you want to release a file format and have dozens if not hundreds of people code to it. Then the file format changes, and you think everyone will update to use the new file format? No, they won't. And what would happen is tons and tons of applications that worked with some versions of firmware and not others. People out there saying that "things are crap," and "this doesn't work" at a volume way, WAY beyond what exists now. And RED would get the blame.

Things are chaotic enough as it is, with a *very* tight circle of companies that read R3D. You think that gets better with an open-source methodology???


Lucas
 
luki said:
Because the file format changes fairly regularly. You saw it from B15 to B16.

So you want to release a file format and have dozens if not hundreds of people code to it. Then the file format changes, and you think everyone will update to use the new file format?
Click to expand...

Yes. Everyone who counts (Avid, Discreet, Quantel, Iridas, etc) will. They know Red is important.

Come on, I wrote graphics file readers when I was 14 in QuickBASIC (dealing with RLE compression in PCX files, etc). It didn't take me that long.

Also, COME ON. The major aspects of the file format (JPEG2000) are not changing.

Documented file format updates are NOT A PROBLEM (and Red has to document them anyway to share with existing partners - this is not extra documentation work). This is smoke and mirrors.

luki said:
No, they won't. And what would happen is tons and tons of applications that worked with some versions of firmware and not others. People out there saying that "things are crap," and "this doesn't work" at a volume way, WAY beyond what exists now. And RED would get the blame.
Click to expand...

Doesn't happen in the DSLR world.

If I use some weird crappy Canon RAW reader program I don't blame Canon.

EDIT: to use my DV example again, remember how Final Cut Pro 1.0 clipped the superwhites in DV footage? Who did everybody complain to? Apple! Not Sony / Pana / Canon.

luki said:
Things are chaotic enough as it is, with a *very* tight circle of companies that read R3D. You think that gets better with an open-source methodology???
Click to expand...

Yes. Much. Red team can stop wasting resources on the SDK and instead spend it making a better codec and communicating with developers to improve support.

EDIT:
Oh, and if Red REALLY wants to take over the world, do this: just give the source code for your .R3D decoder function and your .R3D debayer algorithm to the major players. When you update the codec, send out updated source code and people can swap out for the updated functions.

At the moment, Red needs to decide whether it's in the workflow business or not. At the moment things are not good enough, so I am suggesting Red gets out.

If anyone had suggested two years ago that as of Sept 7, 2008 we still wouldn't be able to read Red Quicktimes in Windows, or that RedCine wouldn't export to any Avid format (Meridien or DNxHD), I think they would have been laughed off RedUser.

Sony and Panasonic have both released COMPLETELY NEW FORMATS WITH CROSS-PLATFORM AVID & FCP SUPPORT in the time it has taken Red to *fail* to make progress on Windows.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
The redraw access really should be given asap to the important players.

The most powerful 4K clusters (as baselight filmlight),
most powerful raw-GPU realtime systems (as iridas speedgrade)
most powerful 4K realtime systems (as DVS clipster)
most powerful VFX & finishing systems (as discreet flame/smoke)
are all still crippled right now.

Allowing these 4 well known and respected companies direct access to the JPEG2000 raw files without sdk is really *the* barricade for red to gain substantial support from most post houses.

The customers still are getting so many unnecessary obstacles in their postproduction pipelines - making the first red experience more frustrating for many first-time users out there than necessary.
 
Is Red expected to announce anything new at IBC?
 
Bruce Allen said:
This is smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...

Gotta go with Bruce on this one. RED would be better off letting the codec and decoder code into the wild and certifying options they felt were good enough after the fact. As users we're going to decide if the image quality is up to snuff because we can verify everything against REDCINE/RED ALERT.

Not only that, I'm positive average users will do side by side tests that will reveal any weaknesses in any product and that manufacturer will get the message FAST.

The whole story up until now was wait for "build 16"...

This whole protect the customer thing sounds like spin to me. It's like no RGB curves in RedCine was to protect us from ruining our images. Come on.
 
Fredrik Harreschou said:
Or they will be happy with REDCODE RGB. Just like your aunt and grandmother, and to my surprise a whole lot of other people, shoots JPEG on their new DSLR and have no idea of what RAW is all about. :wink:
Click to expand...

LOL! I never had a living grandma. I guess that explains my lack of understanding... :)
But there's still a couple of buts around here here (pun intended...)

1. On the DSLR you make that choice, not the manufacturer
2. Working with RGB - as with the cam proxies is pretty simple and I see that quite a few people are happy with that. As long as they're FCP based... But for most this means some kind of transcoding - and then it is NOT as straightforward as in the DSLR case.. Far from, really...
3. I really adviced a cam customer of yours, to rent you and your scratch A total of 800 hours to make the online transcode (on a couple of good days...) and another 800 to finish the thing, is NOT like the DSLR example.

I don't really buy the analogy.

THEN there are all the other advantages of staying in RAW.
1. Data flow.
The RAW files are actually more similar to the jpegs than the jpegs in your comparison.
2. Quality.
For many I may agree. Auto everything on cam and working from the proxies is a good way to get a good image. But all the fun and power in post is in the RAWs... You can get a bit with the transcoding as long as you don't mess up the colors and noise in the development. But many do... And it gives RED a bad name (and in this case: 800 hours of unneccesary work...)

So... I think Scratch is a product good enough to prosper on its own merit. RED workflow needs to be RAW based.

My 4 cents by now...
 
Bruce Allen said:
Come on, I wrote graphics file readers when I was 14 in QuickBASIC (dealing with RLE compression in PCX files, etc). It didn't take me that long.

Also, COME ON. The major aspects of the file format (JPEG2000) are not changing.

Documented file format updates are NOT A PROBLEM (and Red has to document them anyway to share with existing partners - this is not extra documentation work). This is smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...

Since you don't work for Red, and neither do I, neither of us has a clue as to what they're doing with whom, how far along it is, what problems they've run into, what customizations are required, what specific things they're being asked for by potential vendor partners -- need I go on?

The fact is (and I DO happen to know a bit about this) there are incompatibilities and bugs that are presenting various roadblocks with at least some of the vendors that are commonly mentioned here. And this is to be expected. Someone mentioned DV. One of the biggest differences between DV and everything Red is doing is that DV was a self contained format that was designed for the hardware it was going to run on, and designed to fit its capabilities. Red is offering an image format and file formats that are at least a bit beyond the capabilities of today's common desktop hardware in terms of real time performance for debayering routines, decompression, rescaling, and presentation. It's all pretty bleeding edge, but people here seem to conveniently ignore that fact and blame both Red and potential partners for "dragging their feet," or using excuses ("smoke and mirrors") for not being able to instantly evolve current hardware to where it might be 3 years from now. Even Red is calling the current SDK an "Alpha" release. In the world I come from, Alpha is a first experimental developer build, not something that is released to anyone who isn't either a part of the coding team, the company writing the software, or the very top tier of vendor partners - who would be given the Alpha software with an NDA to sign, and a promise not to use it for any commercial development. Even a Beta release (in my world) carries similar limitations. Only in the world of Red does everyone who ever touched a camera get told about Alpha releases - and as a result, you get threads like this one - where nobody seems to understand exactly what is meant by development, alpha, beta, or anything else. All they want to know is why they don't have it yet, and why those who do haven't written completely bug free, user friendly versions of their software and released it yet - even though they've only had ALPHA code for about 2 weeks.

I think by now everyone at Red already knows that when you open Pandora's Box, everyone is going to stick their hand in it. Personally, I think they'd often be a lot better off keeping at least some things private until they're really ready to go public with it. But I guess that's just me.
 
BTW.

I helped taking this OT :)

I know RAW is coming, I just wanted to guess about how many in addition to Scratch that would be able to show realtime playback of RAW @ 1080 or more.

That's still what I am curious about...
 
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