Test of proxies, L&T and Redrushes

[Nate Clapp]

I took a single clip and brought into FCP three different ways- Log and Transfer, using Proxy, and making prores from redrushes and then putting it on timeline.
here are my results:
Proxy (m): very contrasty, as if I had shot on reversal film or maybe a form of bleach bypass. Audio is imported as well. drop on timeline right after shooting, no waiting
Log and Transfer (Native): Not as contrasty but luminance is way down. Looks underexposed. Audio makes it in. Long transcode time. seems like lousy option- lots of transcode time and I still have to fix it.
Redrushes: no curves or look applied other than camera metadata. transcoded to prores hq. No audio support in Redrushes. Stuff looks great.

Sooo.... if one does not use crimson to go back to redcine, it seems that redrushes is the way to go, maybe in conjunction with proxies to get audio. once redrushes supports audio it seems like a no brainer. Frankly i don't see why anyone would use log and transfer.
I could, of course be missing something. please correct me or enlighten me. I am primarally a cameraman, not a post guy so while I am bringing myself up to speed I clearly could be missing something.
If you do it othr ways and like it, please advise.

 

[Rob Powell]

Your summary is basically correct. RedRushes is the best option becuz it allows r3d color grading in RedAlert and scaling/conversion to an editable form. Unfortunately, no audio support which requires manual syncing with proxy audio.

L&T was actually a decent option until build 16. At that point, the gamma of the clips became darker. Red claims this is a QT gamma issue. Others agree. This is unfortunate, because it was an easy, albeit slow, HD input option with both audio/video.

Our process at this stage is:
1) Initial color grade in RedAlert
2) Render in RedRushes to 10bit Uncompressed 1920x1080 QT
3) Edit in FCP
4) Final grade in Color

We've used the Crimson workflow as well, but RedCine has render issues that have limited its usefulness.

 

[mikeburton]

Your summary is basically correct. RedRushes is the best option becuz it allows r3d color grading in RedAlert and scaling/conversion to an editable form. Unfortunately, no audio support which requires manual syncing with proxy audio.

L&T was actually a decent option until build 16. At that point, the gamma of the clips became darker. Red claims this is a QT gamma issue. Others agree. This is unfortunate, because it was an easy, albeit slow, HD input option with both audio/video.

Our process at this stage is:
1) Initial color grade in RedAlert
2) Render in RedRushes to 10bit Uncompressed 1920x1080 QT
3) Edit in FCP
4) Final grade in Color

We've used the Crimson workflow as well, but RedCine has render issues that have limited its usefulness.

I have been using REDCINE since the evening Jarred gave us the app and have pumped countless hours worth of footage through it via Crimson Workflow and without. Everyone bags hard on REDCINE as an unreliable option and it can be buggy at times, however, I wouldn't say its usefulness is limited. I've finished more projects through REDCINE for post companies than with REDRUSHES and L&T using Color, which is a "buggy" app limiting its usefulness as well. Granted you can have more control in Color than REDCINE. You just need to know what will cause certain problems before you hit render and I guess that just comes down to time with the program. I think REDRushes is great, L&T has its uses on certain jobs, and Crimson/REDCINE has its "usefulness" for certain jobs as well. The key is knowing the pros and cons of each and when to use which workflow for the given job at hand.
On a personal note, I just wish people here would stop bagging on an option that is working day in and day out scaring clients away by protesting what they have heard rather than practiced!

 

[Uli Plank]

Redrushes: no curves or look applied other than camera metadata. transcoded to prores hq.

You can apply any changes you make in RedAlert!, and even use one correction on a whole bunch of clips. As soon as RedRushes is supporting audio, it will be perfect for me.

BTW, curves make it to RedRushes, but not into L&T.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

RedRushes will support audio very soon.

You CAN change the IN and OUT points in an RSX file manually, or via a script, and select "use In and Out" from the RSX file to render just the portion you want from a batch in RedRushes.

I still can't comprehend why ANYONE would use Log & Transfer. Period.

Also worth noting, Crimson has a few very impressive tricks coming soon in 1.0 version - Ian is just getting warmed up.

 

[Nate Clapp]

Mainly just wanted to point out that i did no further "grading" by making a curve. and it still came out looking the best by far. Imagine if I had spent some time changing the curve a little.
at this point I get why people will use proxies, depending on how they are working, but after my test, I don't see why anyone would use L&T, at least in current config- with picture looking way under, no matter what "LUT" you apply (native/tungsten/daylight, etc) when you ingest. sure, you get audio, but whew, your picture looks no good/needs to be lifted out of the mud. how is that helping?
anyone who is using L&T on regular basis, explain your solutions or preferences to working this way.

 

[Nate Clapp]

yeah, what Offhollywood said. Don't get using L&T. happy to have someone explain why I am wrong.

 

[Rob Powell]

On a personal note, I just wish people here would stop bagging on an option that is working day in and day out scaring clients away by protesting what they have heard rather than practiced!

I'm glad RedCine is working consistently for you, but it has not for us. We have had problems that RED tech has not been able to address. I agree that no single workflow is the best option. We've used several. Inconsistent performance has been the Achilles heel of RED post so far. I have to be able to give clients a reliable process to use. I'd like nothing better than for RedCine to work flawlessly.

My opinions re RedCine were based upon my experience, not what I had "heard." I've seen many legit problems ignored on this board by people who had not experienced it themselves and thus, assumed it was illegitimate.

R. Powell

 

[Uli Plank]

You CAN change the IN and OUT points in an RSX file manually, or via a script, and select "use In and Out" from the RSX file to render just the portion you want from a batch in RedRushes.

Yes, but then you can't use one RSX for all. I'd be glad to see that option in the next version: Choosing one RSX, but still use in/out-points from individual clips.

 

[Reinhart]

Log and Transfer (Native): Not as contrasty but luminance is way down. Looks underexposed. Audio makes it in. Long transcode time. seems like lousy option- lots of transcode time and I still have to fix it.

Next release of L&T will allow "transcode" to REDCODE ("transcode" in quotes because it won't really be "transcoding" anything, just wrapping the R3D file into a quicktime movie -- which is different than the quicktime references movies created by the camera.) This will speed up the process dramatically.

 

[Jeff Brown]

Sooo.... if one does not use crimson to go back to redcine, it seems that redrushes is the way to go,

Just wondering why you say that? Are you assuming that Crimson can't conform xml from Redrushes processed material?

If you choose substitution and not match camera on the first crimson tab and then remove the "_M" and leave it as .mov then it will link all the redrushes .movs to the r3ds.

Just checking.

Cheers

Jeff Brown
RED708

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

We are using the 2K RED proxies all the way for our feature. We have no issues at all with too much contrast, and using Color for CC is just so easy and amazing. Until something better comes along that has an easy, synched audio solution, we'll keep using the proxies. We love 'em.



Stephen

 

[mikeburton]

I'm glad RedCine is working consistently for you, but it has not for us. We have had problems that RED tech has not been able to address. I agree that no single workflow is the best option. We've used several. Inconsistent performance has been the Achilles heel of RED post so far. I have to be able to give clients a reliable process to use. I'd like nothing better than for RedCine to work flawlessly.

My opinions re RedCine were based upon my experience, not what I had "heard." I've seen many legit problems ignored on this board by people who had not experienced it themselves and thus, assumed it was illegitimate.

R. Powell

Right on, I understand needing to rely on a particular workflow for complete consistency and I'm sorry you guys are having inconsistent results in REDCINE. I have had a few myself but I know each workflow's plusses and minuses and will choose which works best for the clients needs. I just don't want certain people counting this workflow out of the process because they read one or two posts from those that it is not working for as a dead end workflow plagued by mysterious problems, when in fact, i have been able to overcome and troubleshoot any and all problems that I have encountered and i would like to think I have seen the vast majority of those issues. I have had people telling me that using the Proxies/compressor workflow is a complete waist of time and yet i have dealt with many for whom they have finished a complete Feature film offline edit with the Proxy workflow without any troubles.
We all have our process of working for particular scenarios and I think it is best to choose the smart choice for that particular project than be stuck in one particular workflow that you become comfortable with. That is what works for me at least but hey, I don't get into the Mac/PC debates cause i use them both so I guess i have to pick my battles somewhere

 

[Nate Clapp]

"Just wondering why you say that? Are you assuming that Crimson can't conform xml from Redrushes processed material?"

no, I figured however you go, you could go through crimson, but for some jobs if redrushes looks good, why go back through redcine? anyway I was just trying to simplify my situation. if I was going crimson I would consider proxies more, as it would save time.
I would like L&T as it makes a simple turnkey solution for people skittish about workflow but at least when I use L&T I find the resulting images unacceptable. Yes, I know i can color correct to fix. But after all that transcode time I shouldn't have to "Fix" stuff. and more importantly cause people to spread rumors stuff doesn't look good.
Again, if others are finding L&T working for them, please let me know. it is entirely possible I don't know what i am doing.

 

[Reinhart]

I would like L&T as it makes a simple turnkey solution for people skittish about workflow but at least when I use L&T I find the resulting images unacceptable. Yes, I know i can color correct to fix. But after all that transcode time I shouldn't have to "Fix" stuff. and more importantly cause people to spread rumors stuff doesn't look good.

Please realize that L&T does not process the video/audio, it merely provides a means for transfer (and transcode to ProRes) into the FCP browser/timeline/etc. The codec does all the image processing. The only thing "missing" from the color processing metadata right now (as far as the L&T plugin goes) is the "curve" data, which will come available in the next release of the L&T/codec pair. A couple of things the L&T/codec system won't handle (right now at least) are the application of a color space (e.g. RedSpace) and the known gamma discrepancies. Again, I only mention this to

1) avoid the spread of inaccurate information
2) let you all know that we are actively working on this viable workflow option

A big advantage that the "other" applications have over the L&T is the ability for the designers to modify the user interface items as a means of providing lots of options. That's a luxury not afforded by the L&T "subsystem" at the moment. That is, "all" you can choose with L&T are the transcode option and the color profile. This is a restriction placed by FCP/Apple and we don't currently have a way around that.

 

[Nate Clapp]

thanks. I think I understand, but some of this is overwhelming. is Redrushes doing anything substantially different than L&T other than lots of options L&T does not offer? when you say the codec does all image processing, you mean prores? or the r3d plugin?
Is the "underexposed" look from the "known gamma issue?" or is it something else?
I know you guys are working hard, sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand what is doing what. Thanks.

 

[Trevor Meier]

Reinhart, does the new L&T transcode-to-REDCODE feature mean FCP won't be supporting the R3D files natively? i.e. that they'll have to be copied to a new quicktime file (presumably of equal size) in order to be used?

Though it's nice to have new options, this would double the storage requirements for shooting RED...

 

[Reinhart]

Reinhart, does the new L&T transcode-to-REDCODE feature mean FCP won't be supporting the R3D files natively? i.e. that they'll have to be copied to a new quicktime file (presumably of equal size) in order to be used?

Though it's nice to have new options, this would double the storage requirements for shooting RED...

Yes, FCP creates self contained quicktime movies, usually in a "capture scratch" directory. It is [will be?] suggested that you treat your original R3D files as you would film originals, and store them in a safe, offsite location.

 

[Trevor Meier]

It is [will be?] suggested that you treat your original R3D files as you would film originals, and store them in a safe, offsite location.

Of course, keeping R3D archives is already a normal best-practice. But doing so shouldn't preclude the ability to use R3D's directly in FCP. Is there a technical hurdle that prevents direct support?

 

[Reinhart]

Of course, keeping R3D archives is already a normal best-practice. But doing so shouldn't preclude the ability to use R3D's directly in FCP. Is there a technical hurdle that prevents direct support?

To work with the R3D files directly means to use the qt reference files created by the camera or by REDAlert. You can continue to do this. As for the L&T ingest process, it always makes the copy. This is by design [from Apple]. Their philosophy is to never mess with the original media, period.