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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Film Like Feel

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jamieheinrich

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I want to achieve this feel with RED. Is there something in post I can do so that it flows progressively like film.. (more organic).. All the footage I've shot and seen shot on red is very video feeling... Here is a link to the look I am trying to achieve (shot by Ian Bloom on RED).

http://www.danielgarcia.tv/

click on "mates of state" under "music video"

Any ideas or suggestions..? I am referring to the way it looks and flows... Not the color correction. Thanks in advance!!
 
..looks like some post work dabbling going on there... notice that red flare that appears in the upper right corner through various shots? And there is a cooler tone diagonally opposite.. kinda like old film that got shot and printed far after its expiration date?
 
Ask Ian!

It looks like he is just intentionally flairing the lens (maybe he used uncoated lenses)- That gives an "organic feel" The shutter looks like its at 144 (hard to tell at that frame size)

Color-correction has a big part of this. The look is low-contrast with some blue tints put into the right places, also the "light-polluted" film look in the right corner adds to the over all organic look.

Try some old lenses and maybe some diffusion?

Good Luck!
 
Here is an example of something I shot just outside on RED.. shutters at 180 and regular outside exposure no lights what so ever.. Feels videoish... to me.

http://jamieheinrich.com/red_quicktests/better_cc_48th_shutter/grill_48thshutter_betterclipping1.mov

So good to here from Ian .. Great video man. What was the process of shooting that in post. Daniel said you shot it with zeiss lenses. It has this great flow to it that doesn't look like majority of red footage I see... Looks like old film and I think the process was just more than good color correction..Thanks!
 
jamieheinrich said:
Here is an example of something I shot just outside on RED.. shutters at 180 and regular outside exposure no lights what so ever.. Feels videoish... to me.
Click to expand...

The first problem I see is your drinking Coors.
 
Alot of the look you are trying to get is due to color grading...but it starts in the photography and lighting. When you shoot like video, its going to look like video. Try shooting some footage at golden hour, just before sunset or after sunrise...be aware of your exposure and try shooting the subject backlit. I think you will begin to see a difference. Then experiment with the footage and before long you will get better results.
 
It looks like a light leak on part of the music video.

Also, rolling off highlights, blooming blacks and highlights, plus adding some grain would get you closer to the look of the music video. On top of that, the color space of the music video looks like it has that faded dye look so you'll want to desaturate and play with the colors a bit or use some of the existing old film simulation plugins out there.
 
Watching the video (great work Ian BTW) it looks like all the shots are dolly or jib. No handheld. Very defined and well thought out compositions. Slow cutting. The overall feel of the piece is really not about post (even though the coloring definitely adds the old school 70s feel) but Ian's eye.

Art direction is another huge piece of the puzzle. The costumes and the concept make for good eye candy potential.

Your footage (even with the cc tweak) is still way too overexposed. The cheese is clipped! :)
 
jamieheinrich said:
Here is an example of something I shot just outside on RED.. shutters at 180 and regular outside exposure no lights what so ever.. Feels videoish... to me.

http://jamieheinrich.com/red_quicktests/better_cc_48th_shutter/grill_48thshutter_betterclipping1.mov

So good to here from Ian .. Great video man. What was the process of shooting that in post. Daniel said you shot it with zeiss lenses. It has this great flow to it that doesn't look like majority of red footage I see... Looks like old film and I think the process was just more than good color correction..Thanks!
Click to expand...

That's the video that gave birth to Crimson. Shot on Build 6 I think ;)

There is a tremendous amount of post work done on that piece. Though I think a few of the flares are on the lense, most were added in post, and the polluted film look was definitely added in post. I actually shot alot of that piece as saturated as I could keeping the image as clean as possible so that Daniel could do it up with his After Effects guys. Dave Ellis also did quite a bit with his steadicam operating, we were basically using a steadicam when we should have been using a dolly and I don't think you can tell.

I think the the elusive film-look that you are seeking is really more about composition than you want to believe. Lense focal length selection and placement is still the main thing, you don't realize it but the image is sending signals to your brain that say "interesting" or "different from reality".

Likewise color contrast, certain color combinations create certain emotions, a good way to understand this is to look at the paintings of Joseph Albers in his book, Interaction of Color, and other Black Mountain school painters. Such as this one:
gpc_work_midsize_1.jpg


There is something basic and elemental about this image it would be totally different if we replaced the greens with purples. The same psychology is present in every frame you create with a camera.

582_1219281444.jpg


582_1219281782.jpg


I think thats really what it comes down to. What you think of as the film look is really the movie look, which is the eye of the DP/Colorist look which comes down to all of the subconscious elements coming out of the image.

I think in that video you are trying too hard to have "proper" exposure on the face. I would underexpose and drop a Schneider Truecut and an ND9 and in your matte box and protect your highlights at all costs ;)

Is that the Red 18-50?

IBloom
 
my repsonse

my repsonse

It's as simple as the difference between an artist and a .....? --- It's a tool - it's a tool - it's a tool. Can you really say that film has a look? Does smthing shot from the 70s look 70s. Well yes. Technology changes. The RED has moved us into a digital universe. Embrace it. The question is not how to make RED look like film but what image can you use the RED to make. There are an extremely robust range of choices you need to make. Most important -- always -- will be what story you are telling. If it is compelling, the audience will forgive just about anything image-wise. The art of film-making is making the twi inseparable - image and story. Ian is an artist as his work clearly demonstrates - to get his "feel" you need eyes not a question of curves or pushing midtones. Content should always define both the choice of tool and its delivery. Excuse my rancor but really is this a good question for a broad community? Will someone on an internet forum in the space of a few lines give you an answer that will change things for you? If you really want to know exactly how he made his Red shot material to look the way it does then ask him. I'm sure, based on his openness expressed hereon the forums, that he will share his tricks with you. Mabye ask a question like "how do I make my material to look like Ian Bloom's video" instead.

The true artist reveals mystical truths.

Anyway.... I've probably ventured way too far off of track - somewhere a nerv-eending despite much too much abuse has flickered to life. Way too much palinka on St. Istvan's day for me. : )
 
ibloom said:
That's the video that gave birth to Crimson. Shot on Build 6 I think ;)

There is a tremendous amount of post work done on that piece. Though I think a few of the flares are on the lense, most were added in post, and the polluted film look was definitely added in post. I actually shot alot of that piece as saturated as I could keeping the image as clean as possible so that Daniel could do it up with his After Effects guys. Dave Ellis also did quite a bit with his steadicam operating, we were basically using a steadicam when we should have been using a dolly and I don't think you can tell.

I think the the elusive film-look that you are seeking is really more about composition than you want to believe. Lense focal length selection and placement is still the main thing, you don't realize it but the image is sending signals to your brain that say "interesting" or "different from reality".

Likewise color contrast, certain color combinations create certain emotions, a good way to understand this is to look at the paintings of Joseph Albers in his book, Interaction of Color, and other Black Mountain school painters. Such as this one:
gpc_work_midsize_1.jpg


There is something basic and elemental about this image it would be totally different if we replaced the greens with purples. The same psychology is present in every frame you create with a camera.

582_1219281444.jpg


582_1219281782.jpg


I think thats really what it comes down to. What you think of as the film look is really the movie look, which is the eye of the DP/Colorist look which comes down to all of the subconscious elements coming out of the image.

I think in that video you are trying too hard to have "proper" exposure on the face. I would underexpose and drop a Schneider Truecut and an ND9 and in your matte box and protect your highlights at all costs ;)

Is that the Red 18-50?

IBloom
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing all your great advice. Makes a lot of sense when you break those colors down and what triggers what emotion wise. Not once in that vid did your footage feel video or film just somewhere in between, its like this new look, some of the best red footage I've seen. I think its easy for the sharp footage to lose emotion and feel flat even with such a great amount of DOF (in a lot of red footage I've seen). Im going to test with some softer lenses and real lighting on my next test, but any other info you have in you to match that same look of that music vid, I would really appreciate it..(maybe the exact workflow if you were involved in post). Thanks for your time, wonderful work.
 
also your highlights are all blown out in the barbeque footage - thats a page one video giveaway.

If you shot film with this exposure set up it wouldn't look great either. You need to pay attention more to how you shoot things. No camera or format is going to overcome errors caused by not knowing what you are trying to get out of it in the first place.
 
jamieheinrich said:
I want to achieve this feel with RED. Is there something in post I can do so that it flows progressively like film.. (more organic).. All the footage I've shot and seen shot on red is very video feeling... Here is a link to the look I am trying to achieve (shot by Ian Bloom on RED).

http://www.danielgarcia.tv/

click on "mates of state" under "music video"

Any ideas or suggestions..? I am referring to the way it looks and flows... Not the color correction. Thanks in advance!!
Click to expand...

I assume your shooting 23.976 fps? 180 deg shutter?

Once you add 3:2 pulldown to this, via a Kona Card or similar interface, it will add the film like temporal flow to the footage.
 
brandonk said:
I assume your shooting 23.976 fps? 180 deg shutter?

Once you add 3:2 pulldown to this, via a Kona Card or similar interface, it will add the film like temporal flow to the footage.
Click to expand...

What you mean by pulldown? (sorry there are some therms I dont quite get).
 
Here's a great explanation of pulldown:

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html

For Jamie, shoot 23.976 fps, 180 degree shutter, frame for Cinemascope 2.39:1, keep a shallow depth of field via open iris as much as possible (use NDs to help this), don't center frame (not a hard rule but think about negative space and placement in frame), watch your highlights, and colour grade to achieve a film look rather than oversaturated, super-contrasty video.

That's some really basic info but if you do all that your work will begin to look and feel far more like cinema than video.

HTH!

Paul
 
brandonk said:
I assume your shooting 23.976 fps? 180 deg shutter?

Once you add 3:2 pulldown to this, via a Kona Card or similar interface, it will add the film like temporal flow to the footage.
Click to expand...

Will you (or someone) please be more specific on this process. I am a bit familiar with how a dvd player adds this on playback after you've done encoding, but not sure in what stage this process happens in the edit workflow. I've been using log and transfer in fcp to qt pro rez HQ and not noticing a difference. Also exporting dpx or tiffs out of red alert then rendering them out of AE and still not noticing a difference in creating the film like temporal flow..(would like some more detail on that too) I am using kona LH card on mac pro, final cut, ae, color, etc. Thanks much for all the advice.. and beautiful work to james mather....
 
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