Legacy Workflows vs. Current Workflows

[michael_lucid]

I know Avid is on the cusp of some sizeable announcements as far as RED and Avid interop, but unfortunately, I need to deliver a presentation on workflow NOW. I need to focus on the most reliable methods and what Avid endorses...and not throw a bunch of 3rd party apps into the mix. (MPEG Streamclip, etc)

Studio Daily and various websites have workflows from Bob and Michael at Avid. And while they all make sense - some are several months old...which in RED speak is ancient history!

It appears the tried and true methods are:

REDCine or REDAlert workflow (Mac)

1. R3D files opened by REDCine or REDAlert.

2. Export DPX and QT Files from either. This is not done concurrently (2 pass)

3. QT file imported into Metacheater. ALE is generated.

4. Import ALE into Avid, batch import QT Files. (transcoding to DNxHD36)

5. Export into Filmscribe. Generate XML for Crimson, which can reference the DPX file.

If on a PC......

1. R3D files opened by REDCine.

2. Export DPX files.

3. DPX file imported and transcoded in Metafuze into DNxHD. ALE is generated.

4. Import ALE and transcoded files into Avid.

5. Export into Filmscribe. Generate XML for Crimson, which can reference the DPX file.



OR, the new...RedRushes Workflow (Mac)

1. R3D files into RedRushes. Export DPX, QT files and ALE.

2. Import ALE into Avid, batch import QT Files. (transcoding to DNxHD36)

3. Export into Filmscribe. Generate XML for Crimson, which can reference the DPX file.

I understand while the REDRushes workflow is newer, there are limitations on the amount of files per batch, etc. It also does not have the history (relatively speaking) of the other apps.

So, which workflow now is the most reliable? Is the older workflow the one that will be phased out to make room for REDrushes...at least until there is a better interop with REDCode and Avid?

Thanks all.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Here's another option, assuming that the imminent fix for DNxHD direct export from RedCine is released...

offline edit:
1. Load R3Ds into RedCine. Do quick 1-light.
2. Export DNxHD36 quicktimes from RedCine with window burn, low-quality scaling, NR, etc
3. Translate RedCine XML file into ALE file with Avid tools
4. Load ALE, connect media, edit happily

for finish on the same system:
1. export edit & convert to RedCine XML file with handles with Avid tools
2. Spend time doing much nicer basic color grade on clips
3. Export DNxHD175X quicktimes from RedCine with all cool scaling, NR options turned up
4. load new media back into Avid & re-link: new online-quality timeline is created
5. re-render your timeline, do final tweaks, and export for final DaVinci tape-to-tape, DI, or whatever

What do you think?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[michael_lucid]

Here's another option, assuming that the imminent fix for DNxHD direct export from RedCine is released...

That's what I'm hoping for. But as of 5:30pm here, DNxHD doesn't fly out of RedCine to well...garbled video here.

Plus, using DNxHD may not fly for those who want to utilize higher quality DPX or TIFF Files.

So.....I presume I am still stuck with my above kluge?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Yes, you are stuck with the kludge for now.

When this gets fixed I think we will see a considerable uptick in REDs actually being rented out to well-paying jobs.

Not that this isn't happening already. Just it could be happening *A LOT MORE*.

BTW, for DPX or TIFF file finish, you wouldn't need to change much, would you? Just output DPX or TIFF files from RedCine during the online stage...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[redfred]

REDCine or REDAlert workflow (Mac)

1. R3D files opened by REDCine or REDAlert.

2. Export DPX and QT Files from either. This is not done concurrently (2 pass)

Maybe I'm wrong, but why bother making DPX of ALL your rushes at this stage? Surely you only export your 'One light' QTs, edit them, and then when you bring your XML to Crimson, then intermediates to RedCine, and only create the DPX that you need (with handles) for your conform. Saving a whole lot of time and processing.

Am I missing something?

 

[michael_lucid]

Well, as I have just realized, an XML export from FilmScribe would only be for 25fps projects...not 23.98/24. If this is the case, then I am limited to the EDL from Avid/EDL manager.

Can Redcine translate that EDL and pull from the r3d file structure...given that there are nexted folders? Can Assimilate?

Care to point out any flaws in my logic?

 

[michael_lucid]

As I research more, Michael Phillips recommends placing all of the R3d files into one folder, so the conform from the EDL can locate the files...which seems to answer my question and agree with you, Fred!

 

[simonpeterarnold]

So the filmscribe xml is up and running then, I thought it was still in dev. What version of MC does it work in for Crimson?

 

[Michael Lindsay]

None of the above actually works... (I say this to save others my pain)

Meta cheater is not the way to go if you intend to use filmscribe. Use Redcine for XML output (this is a small challenge in itself with allot of files). Having said this there is not 'today' a reason to use filmscribe

Filmscribe XML to crimson... nope

What works for me (avid editorial - symphony online):

Generate proxies in one location using RedRushes (be careful no paths have spaces in there names). Only use medium proxies (H is buggy)

Generate DNxHD 36 (or SD if 25p) by importing proxies into Avid with a ALE (from Redcine via MichaelP's transform or Metacheater)

Do a rough-first-pass-super-long-edit that includes all shots you 'might' use.... (no dissolves... no time warps!!!!)

Export AAF - AutoDuck to FCP - XML to crimson

Crimson to Redcine (take out extra FCP frame)

Do a technical grade pass...

Render out either as Component ... (No other quicktime works perfectly.. Animation is a mess..) or if you really care about the quality render Tiff16bit as this is the ONLY!!!!!! way of getting 10bit quality into Avid.. unfortunately I have not found a way of automating import into Avid with Tiff!!

Create another ALE (only from meta cheater) and import all the new clips into 'another' avid project at 185 or uncompressed (there is no point doing X as 10bit is NOT possible)


Open the first project and decompose the sequence to online..

THEN re link using Tape and TC to the new clips...

Finish and enjoy.

Ta daa !!! THE AVID 'WORK TRICKLE'

M

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Everything would be much better if:

Crimson used TC rather than frame counting... This would mean you could decompose the Avid sequence and lay all the clips on a new sequence.. this would get around the timewarp, dissolve and submaster problems... You would then be able to conform complicated sequences.. (OR filmscribe into crimson would help as well..)


And Quicktime DNX output from Redtools!!

Lets hope MichaelP is able make this happen.. (very nice dedicated guy)

regards

Michael

 

[MichaelP]

Certainly the Decompose with handles is one way to manually allow the Avid sequence/metadata feature set to do the work. The XML work we are doing is all via FilmScribe and the bin and can sit anywhere in the workflow since none of the tools are protected and are cross platform.

Michael

 

[michael_lucid]

Upon even further review....

If FilmScribe is NOT for 23.98/24 workflows, then we need to use the new 16character EDL feature in EDL Manager. However, I don't believe that REDCine/REDAlert/REDRushes can understand this and flip the R3D files into DPX from this pull/cut list....basically, saving the time of transcoding EVERYTHING to DPX.

I can only assume this was done on purpose to better leverage Scratches position to conform...however, if I'm wrong...is this a feature to be implemented soon?

 

[Dylan Reeve]

I have a script that I use to generate a shell script from an EDL (with some clip metadata supplied from a CSV file). However it's not really usable in a public context at the moment. I've held off finishing it as the workflow seems to be somewhat on the cusp of an overhaul. I also have not tested at all with framerates of anything other than 25fps.

I've been looking at making a REDCine XML also, but haven't test that yet at all.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

We're trying to determine whether it makes sense for us to to an HD SR out of our Symphony Nitris for back up (don't have VTR -would have to rent). Are people having success with merely copying original files to another drive with back up, or additionally laying to tape as the comfortable fail safe? Obviously it takes time to import at 175 X (can this in fact be done now), then playout to SR?

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Doing that would be 'baking' the settings in of course. Ideally you'd backup the R3D files - all else can be derived from that again. Hard-drives are one option, but it's pretty debatable how realistic they are as a backup option. Otherwise LTO tape is the best-rated option.

 

[Joe Gill]

LTO is the way to go - remember that the files are your digital negative. I've seen a lot of people try the hard drive way and get burned when the drives perish and go to the clean room for rebuilding, which is always more expensive than LTO drives. Some other high drives were based on DBeta and D1 machines, and Discreet used to let you layback your project data onto a tape with the source footage (hint to Red or someone who loves code) which would be perfect, as then you would just get an extra HD tape and fill it while you made your in-house masters anyway... Check the LTO thread with excellent review...