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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DreamColor LP2480zx and Scratch

Here's the correspondence with MOTU regarding their new V4HD i/o box. It's not cheap, but it's quite powerful, versatile, etc... and can power a number of displays simultaneously:

I run Scratch through an Nvidia Quadro FX4600 SDI card for monitoring. I want to use the new HP Dreamcolor monitor, but it has DVI, HDMI 1.3, Displayport inputs, no SDI. So I was hoping to use your box for, among other things, true 10-bit conversion from HD SDI to HDMI 1.3. This would need to be 10 bits all the way, since I'm trying to get a 1920x1080 progressive signal into the Dreamcolor.

Is this possible with V4HD?

Yes. The V4HD passes a full raster 10 bit 1920X1080 signal from input to output.

Dave Roberts - MOTU


That's one solution to run the Dreamcolor with Scratch from Nvidia now.

regards,

John T.
 
Looks like the V4HD is still 4:2:2 10-bit, which may or may not be a problem depending on your workflow. It also appears to be a ProRes-type device similar to the ioHD from AJA... be interesting to know if it has an uncompressed "convert-only" mode.
 
Good point trevor...

Excluding the source material that we are grading (lets say RAW (so 444 etc..)),and just talking about how to monitor the color grading :

what about the difference between :

single link sdi (10 bit 422)
dual link sdi (10 444)
dvi (8 bit (444?))
display port (10 bit (444?)

I mean in terms of monitoring is better sdi 10 bit 422 or 8 bit dvi?if you don't have dual link monitor off course ...

PS:the Nvidia quadro can autput dual link 444 right?but also only single link of the same source right?



Thanks

G
 
Trevor Meier said:
Looks like the V4HD is still 4:2:2 10-bit, which may or may not be a problem depending on your workflow. It also appears to be a ProRes-type device similar to the ioHD from AJA... be interesting to know if it has an uncompressed "convert-only" mode.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's 4:2:2 10-bit, and compressed like the AJA ioHD.

I'm not too concerned about the 4:2:2 as I have yet to see the difference in playback between that and 4:4:4 (it's the working pliability that makes the latter more desirable to me), but the compressed output would definitely need to be compared to straight SDI.

jt
 
Guy may i ask a few word about the bit depth per channel?

I am trying to understand the relationship between the bit depth per channel importance of the monitor and of the video output , to try to figure out what features made a monitor for grading entry , good , great etc... (off course there more are characteristics that are important ...)

In this thread i have learned that DVI is 8 bit and SDI is 10 bit , and you say that those 2 bit could be a quite enough difference...

1)when we say bit per channel we mean for the RGB , so 8x3-->24 , but SDI single link could be considered RGB so 10x3 ? (i thought that only SDI dual link is RGB)

It seems that the dreamcolor is 10x3--->30, the Tv Logic is 24 bit , the eCinema Pro series is 16 bit per channel.....!!!

2)How can we relate with number? I mean in the case of the Tv Logic is a waste investe money to use a sdi connection (quadro SDI) instead of a quadro DVI considering that the diaplay is 8 bit?

3)What about the case of the eCinema , are those 48 bit so relevant considering that the SDI carry 30 ?

4)Is dual Link SDI 30 bit or more ?

5)Is the quality of the DVI from Quadro the same quality of a DVI from the 8800 for example or any other DVI or is better signal for some reason ? (i am talking about the GPU power off course)

Thanks


G
 
1)when we say bit per channel we mean for the RGB , so 8x3-->24 , but SDI single link could be considered RGB so 10x3 ? (i thought that only SDI dual link is RGB)

Yes - SDI is 4:2:2 which is YCbCr, dual link SDI is RGB 4:4:4 The color sampling is was allows the same resolution to travel along each variant of this interface. Its also possible to multiplex an additional 2 bits for a 12 bit 4:4:4 signal over dual link SDI.

10bits is the same as 30bits in a three channel system like YCbCr or RGB. So SDI = 30 bits, and DVI = 24 bits. I'm accustomed to seeing bit depth represented per-channel, so I usually discuss in terms of 8, 10, 12, or 16 bits.


2)How can we relate with number? I mean in the case of the Tv Logic is a waste investe money to use a sdi connection (quadro SDI) instead of a quadro DVI considering that the diaplay is 8 bit? ...3)What about the case of the eCinema , are those 48 bit so relevant considering that the SDI carry 30 ?

eCinema Pro series is 16 bit per channel _processing_, but I'm going to guess the LCD panel is 10 bits per channel, as I'm not aware of any panels available with more.

The more bits used for processing, the greater the mathematical precision of the resulting colors - but that is only during processing, not input or output. Being able to display 10 bits is advantageous over 8 bits, you'll see the difference most easily in darker smooth gradients, fog, smoke, etc... . Is this essential to color grading? I don't think so, but it helps. And there are definitely some circumstances where it can be difficult to grade in an 8 bit display chain.


4)Is dual Link SDI 30 bit or more ?

30 or 36 bits, i.e. 10 or 12 bits


5)Is the quality of the DVI from Quadro the same quality of a DVI from the 8800 for example or any other DVI or is better signal for some reason ? (i am talking about the GPU power off course)

The 8800 is the same GPU as the Quadro FX 4600. The difference is that certain features are disabled in the GeForce series. If you need extensive pro-level support for openGL, then the Quadro series is needed. Typically these happen in 3d openGL, but Scratch uses the FX series gpu for rendering scaffolds (secondaries) in real time, as well. I'm not too familiar with the details, but that's the basic difference. To my understanding, the DVI output of both series would be indetical, but if you want SDI output you have to go for the FX for now.

I'm really hoping that Nvidia gets a 10bit displayport and/or HDMI 1.3 capable card out. I think their entire range of gaming & pro cards should come with these at least as options.


cheers,

John T.
 
Thanks Lunacie

In which case dual link is 12 bit ( i mean always ? the quadro FX SDI?)
What about Dual link DVI doesn't carry 10 bit ? (only Hdmi 1.3 or display port?)


This monitor choice is so difficult... when the price range is so large ... also every kind of Monitor brochure report different voices and features (for example sometimes they don't report the panel bit depth , sometimes the don't speak about the calibration method , sometimes they don't speak about many many features that they have...)

Is a jungle , i think the only way is to " try all of them " but is quite difficult...

PS:Maybe a stupid question , may i ask the role of RGB and Yuv in the Monitor ? I mean all the monitor works in RGB or Not?....

Anyway guys, any experience with other brand ?

For example What about eCinema versus TvLogc VS JVC ?

Thanks


G
 
The monitor landscape

The monitor landscape

A few notes from the field, just my 2¢: I have an eCinema and have spent some time with the Cine-Tal, both are more CRTish than any other LCD options I have seen as of NAB 2008. In the more reasonably priced tier I think the JVC deserves praise and I prefer it to the widely used BT-series Pannys (tho the Pannys get points for being rugged). There are some interesting options for pre-processing and then displaying images on the Apple Cinema Displays that deserve a positive note.

I have a DreamColor on order and look forward to seeing it side by side with the eCinema. I am very interested in finding an affordable 10 bit capable solution for driving the DreamColor from the HD-SDI daughter-card on the nVidia 5600 - presumably via HDMI. I will report my impressions as soon as the monitor arrives.
 
Thanks Blair!!!

Wow looks like you have experience with the best monitor!

Yes please tell us you impression about the Dreamcolor as soon as possible!

May i ask you please which eCinema you have?
Do you think that it worth the price??why??

I am very attracted by the Pro series but honestly i don't have any experience with any Broadcast monitor ( i am coming from photography business(Eizo Monitor)and i am approaching the Color Grading for Film only now...)

I want to start in right direction , with the proper hardware but i know that sometimes the big price difference it doesn't mean big differences in terms of quality...


PS:what about the option for the Apple cinema display?are you talking about the MXO ?

Thanks

G
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
In the more reasonably priced tier I think the JVC deserves praise and I prefer it to the widely used BT-series Pannys (tho the Pannys get points for being rugged).
Click to expand...

Agreed. I have one of those JVC 24's w SDI and it sucks a lot less than the Pannys... :usd:
OTOH, I have been watching this thread and I find it surprising that you guys are so eager to find all your solutions in the Dreamcolor. If you are running SCRATCH, saving a grand over several months, while waiting, well...
 
Hi Frederik,

The attraction of the Dreamcolor for me is being able to do away with HD-SDI completely. So .. saving ALOT more than a grand.

But this depends completely on displayport 10-bit becoming viable..
 
Price

Price

The eCinema DCM-23 that I have is a wonderful monitor but at $18K list its a serious investment for a smaller shop. I got a look at Martin's new offerings at NAB where he was showing an entry level panel for $5K that I thought looked a little better than the JVC but not as rugged. The mid range monitor line included a 40" that might be a killer client monitor. The top end unit was very nice and very expensive - like over $50K if I remember right :ohmy:

In any case, if you are new to color correction for moving images the first step is really the viewing environment. Be aware that ambient color bias, adjacent light sources (you want your eye's iris open just the right amount), etc can have more influence than you think - heck, I even wear a black shirt and cover the keyboard with black duve but I'm a little obsessive.

Bottom line, getting 10 bits all the way to the panel for less than the cost of a new car is a game changer. If the DreamColor is the sh*t and we can drive it at 10 bits with a dual link HD-SDI to HDMI 1.3 converter off the daughtercard life is good. I should have my eval unit in a few days and I am seriously geeked up.

I look forward to filing a report - maybe I can even get JT to join the party.
 
From what I can tell from the documentation the Black Magic Multibridge extreme I'm currently using supports 10bit out of it's dual link DVI output. It uses 14bit internal processing and is connected directly to the PCI-E bus. I do not know if Scratch can use this pipe for output or if it needs to be off the Quadro but at least for CS3, FCP and Color you should able to get 10bit to your Dreamcolor this way.

http://www.decklink.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/
 
The DCM23 can be had for a third that price now... (yikes). Technology moves, uh, fast...

2- I remember the top-end eCinema (the DPX24) being about $37,500 (with input cards). It doesn't seem like $50k?? (Or maybe the 40" one is.)

2- Viewing environment: Yeah a good viewing environment is a good idea. But I've seen enough high-end facilities with sub-optimal viewing environments... tungsten lighting, lighting hitting the face of a CRT (there goes the black level), etc.

3- Gabriele: I'd try and get a demo of the JVC 24" DT-something and the FX series from eCinema... those were the most promising monitors I saw at NAB for a cost-effective monitoring solution. And maybe some of the other monitors depending on your needs.

List of broadcast monitor manufacturers

4- I like HD-SDI... if you need to deal with VTRs, you want HD-SDI to be able to monitor the deck correctly.

5- The HP display being 10-bit: This seems to me to be highly overrated.

It seems to me that you'll only get 10-bits going to the monitor once the DVI hardware/video card *and* your software supports it.
Or else go through HD-SDI (10-bit Y'CbCr; you lose a small amount of precision going between Y'CbCr and R'G'B') into a 10-bit panel (eCinema claims the FX24 is a 10-bit panel). So it's not really anything new.

3b- How the display is implemented will make a difference too... e.g. what kind of dithering they use and how the calibration is done, precision of the processing, the gamut of the backlight, etc. For Rec. 709, a wide gamut backlight is actually a slightly bad thing as your bit depth will be spread over a larger gamut, a lot of which will be wasted.
 
Evin Grant said:
From what I can tell from the documentation the Black Magic Multibridge extreme I'm currently using supports 10bit out of it's dual link DVI output. It uses 14bit internal processing and is connected directly to the PCI-E bus. I do not know if Scratch can use this pipe for output or if it needs to be off the Quadro but at least for CS3, FCP and Color you should able to get 10bit to your Dreamcolor this way.

http://www.decklink.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/
Click to expand...

Thanks Evin. Lucas, is this an option? My spidey sense says no.. only Quadro?

Cheers
 
Scratch runs off the GPU so with the daughter card having SDI the image is then pumped out through that.

If you look at Apple Color, you can select blackmagic cards for preview out but this does have a hit on the FPS.

I suspect things will change soon though..


Si
 
guys i have a question:

What about for the grading that is going to print on film?

Does this influence the choice of the monitor?

Or for that target we need just a REC 709 capable display and add a print LUT by scratch etc...?

PS:how doest it works the calibration for the eCinema FX?It's something automatic (connecting the probe (which one?)) like the Eizo monitor for example?

Thanks

G
 
is scratch totally nvidia dependant? (i suppose it is)

ati has some new firepro ...(not firegl)...cards out, it's a lower priced line
$599 gets you 10 bit display port output
http://ati.amd.com/products/firepro/firepromatrix.html

would be nice to have some other options
these may not be up to the task, I was just wondering how dependant scratch is on the Nvidia quadro
 
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