Basic Questions-red Cine

[Kevin Wild]

We received our camera this week, so I've been digging in to the different workflows and have some questions. My first overall one is: How can we learn more about these apps (Alert, Cine, Rushes) without wasting a lot of time testing ourselves and/or asking a million questions online here? I hope RED or someone comes out with some manuals that explain some workflow basics with the software. For now, I'll start this thread and hope that good information gets added:


GENERAL/BASIC COLORING
-I'm struggling a bit with what to adjust and what things are more destructive to the images (in ALL the app's.) For example, the image comes in generally dark, what should I adjust first? Raise mids in the curves? ISO? Exposure? Brightness/Shadow/Contrast? I realize some are different than others, but all can do a reasonable job at brightening the image to a similar look. Which is the best place to start that will lead to the least image degradation? (ie. First adjust ISO, than adjust Exposure...)

RED CINE
-Does "Sharpen" even work? I am currently looking at a blown up image and go from 0 to 100 in the OLPF "Sharpen" and am seeing zero difference. Same thing for "Detail." No visible difference.

-I see Rushes now has "Camera Look." Does Cine default to the settings you had on camera? It seems to and it seems you click "Color" to toggle between the RAW and the LOOK image, but wanted to make sure.

-Under "Shot," you can see the Metadata on the clip, but why no "Iso" so you can see what you started with?

-Where can we find information what "Filter" is best for what codec we're using? I see the list from "linear" to "Triangle" to "B-Spline," but have no idea what the difference in filter technology is. Not sure this couldn't have been "under the hood." Do you guys really know what to choose? I've done video a long time and have no clue. I'd love to learn...the basics?

-Why no export to DVCPro 1080 29.97? This seems like a common codec that a lot of broadcast people are using. Or am I missing something as it says DVCPRO-HD720p and then I can set my rez to 1920 x 1080.

-Can we get "Range" to stay on when you go to the Library and come back? It defaults to going off now, so you lose the frames you've chosen, if you go to look for another take or something.

-Can you not just export a single clip (or Range of a clip) or is mine just buggy? If I want to do this, I have to delete everything from the library. Is this correct? Odd, if so. It would seem the most logical way for this to work, would be to set a range PER CLIP and that only that range would be exported out. That would be excellent...is there not a way to do this if you only need 2 seconds in the middle of a 2 minutes shot?

Thanks a lot. Amazing app, but I would love to learn more about these issues as well as any other real-world workflow tips people want to share.

Kevin

 

[Wayne D]

you can go here http://www.red.com/support/release_history/6 and download some good tuts.

should answer some of your questions.

have you downloaded all the RED codecs?
what version of REDcine are you using?
are you FCP or AVID?

 

[Kevin Wild]

Thanks, Wayno. I just watched through those again thinking I missed something, but all of my questions still stand. So...if anyone would like to give them a shot, I would guess I'm not the only one wondering about some of these.

As far as I know, there is only one RED codec. Yes, I have the most recent one loaded as well as the latest Red Cine, Alert and Rushes. All up to date...working on a Mac, of course. None of my questions should really matter if I work in FCP or AVID, but I work in FCP.

Thanks!

Kevin

 

[Gunleik Groven]

All these are apps are generally spoken NOT coloring apps, but development apps. RC defaults (or used to default) to the camera settings. I think it now defaults to RedSpace, but that the ISO/WB settings are the same as in camera.

If you go much bellow the 5600 WB you will add a lot of noise to your image. Exposure not be risen if you don't have to. It's a better idea to export 10-bit redlog files and just use RedCine/RA to et as noise free an image as you can and then correct the log files (DPX/AJA).

 

[Wayne D]

kevin - here is the low down on some of the filters that you can use in your output in RC

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Oversampling_(Antialiasing)

not the exact site the was shown to me but it is the same info.
hope it helps ....:detective2:

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hey Kevin,

Here are some answers...

-Does "Sharpen" even work? I am currently looking at a blown up image and go from 0 to 100 in the OLPF "Sharpen" and am seeing zero difference. Same thing for "Detail." No visible difference.

Switch to looking at the Full Rez High and then zoom in. The settings are fairly subtle and you can't really see them unless you are at Full Rez.

-I see Rushes now has "Camera Look." Does Cine default to the settings you had on camera? It seems to and it seems you click "Color" to toggle between the RAW and the LOOK image, but wanted to make sure.

You are correct. Bingo. : )

-Under "Shot," you can see the Metadata on the clip, but why no "Iso" so you can see what you started with?

Because the ISO is a setting in Color. If you want to see what the ISO is for a shot, just look at the setting in Color! That metadata comes across.

-Where can we find information what "Filter" is best for what codec we're using? I see the list from "linear" to "Triangle" to "B-Spline," but have no idea what the difference in filter technology is. Not sure this couldn't have been "under the hood." Do you guys really know what to choose? I've done video a long time and have no clue. I'd love to learn...the basics?

Someone else posted some links, but filtering is a very subjective thing. What looks great to some people is displeasing to others. Bottom line - run a bunch of tests with different footage and see what you get and what works for you.

-Why no export to DVCPro 1080 29.97? This seems like a common codec that a lot of broadcast people are using. Or am I missing something as it says DVCPRO-HD720p and then I can set my rez to 1920 x 1080.

Jim has stated that some codecs were removed for testing purposes and will be put back in when possible.

-Can we get "Range" to stay on when you go to the Library and come back? It defaults to going off now, so you lose the frames you've chosen, if you go to look for another take or something.

Good request...

-Can you not just export a single clip (or Range of a clip) or is mine just buggy? If I want to do this, I have to delete everything from the library. Is this correct? Odd, if so. It would seem the most logical way for this to work, would be to set a range PER CLIP and that only that range would be exported out. That would be excellent...is there not a way to do this if you only need 2 seconds in the middle of a 2 minutes shot?

I just tested this across a few builds of REDCINE and it works as expected for me. So... put several clips into a timeline. Select "Range" and then go directly to Output and perform a render. You get the entire timeline?

You set a range per clip by going to Shot and adjusting the In and Out points.

Hope this helps!

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Kevin Wild]

Hmm...this has been very buggy for me. Like I mentioned, I've had to always clear all other clips to export the one I want. If not, it seems to want to export the first clip and not the one in my window.

But, that said, it seems like a HUGE help would be a choice between "EXPORT CLIP" or "EXPORT ALL." Can it not do this now? It seems like a VERY nice option...if you're just revising one shot, you could do just that shot. OR, if you have corrected all of them, you could export all of your clips. Which is it supposed to do? Because of the error I'm getting, I can't even tell and have been limited to one clip per project to export correctly. (Working on an Intel Mac, latest everything)

Thanks for the help, Luki!

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

Here are some answers...



Switch to looking at the Full Rez High and then zoom in. The settings are fairly subtle and you can't really see them unless you are at Full Rez.



You are correct. Bingo. : )



Because the ISO is a setting in Color. If you want to see what the ISO is for a shot, just look at the setting in Color! That metadata comes across.



Someone else posted some links, but filtering is a very subjective thing. What looks great to some people is displeasing to others. Bottom line - run a bunch of tests with different footage and see what you get and what works for you.



Jim has stated that some codecs were removed for testing purposes and will be put back in when possible.



Good request...



I just tested this across a few builds of REDCINE and it works as expected for me. So... put several clips into a timeline. Select "Range" and then go directly to Output and perform a render. You get the entire timeline?

You set a range per clip by going to Shot and adjusting the In and Out points.

Hope this helps!

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hmm...this has been very buggy for me. Like I mentioned, I've had to always clear all other clips to export the one I want. If not, it seems to want to export the first clip and not the one in my window.

But, that said, it seems like a HUGE help would be a choice between "EXPORT CLIP" or "EXPORT ALL." Can it not do this now? It seems like a VERY nice option...if you're just revising one shot, you could do just that shot. OR, if you have corrected all of them, you could export all of your clips. Which is it supposed to do? Because of the error I'm getting, I can't even tell and have been limited to one clip per project to export correctly. (Working on an Intel Mac, latest everything)

Thanks for the help, Luki!

Kevin

Kevin,

To export a specific clip:

1) Hit Range within that clip, then go to Output and render out.

To export individual clips to separate folders:

1) Go to Output and click in the "#6.E" window
2) Select "Separate Folders" and render out

To export a complete timeline as one contiguous clip:

1) in the "#6.E" window, do NOT select "Separate Folders" when rendering.

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Kevin Wild]

Luki, thanks but this is driving me crazy.

On a new Intel MacBookPro (OS 10.5.4), I just did a fresh start. I downloaded the RED QT codec, Cine and Alert.

I did exactly as I think I'm supposed to. I brought in about 6 clips. I went to clip 3 and set an in and out point and "range". I exported to ProRez (default settings) and it output a really nice quicktime.

I went back into Cine, went to clip 5 and set in and out points and "range". I didn't change ANY OTHER settings other than the name. I watched it go frame by frame exporting, but when I went to the file, it was a .mov of the first frame of my other file from clip 3.

This is frustrating. Any ideas on what is going on? The file size is 200 megs, so somehow Cine is exporting just the still of the first frame...

Any advice?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I think it is still early days for Redcine. On one of my PCs it just displays blank screen instead of rendering a clip. On the second PC all rendering output is either black frames or white frames. I am also having similar problems to those you described. Some people seem to be able to get Redcine to work, but on my configuration this is not the case. I think the best thing at this stage is to wait for the fixes.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Luki, thanks but this is driving me crazy.

On a new Intel MacBookPro (OS 10.5.4), I just did a fresh start. I downloaded the RED QT codec, Cine and Alert.

I did exactly as I think I'm supposed to. I brought in about 6 clips. I went to clip 3 and set an in and out point and "range". I exported to ProRez (default settings) and it output a really nice quicktime.

I went back into Cine, went to clip 5 and set in and out points and "range". I didn't change ANY OTHER settings other than the name. I watched it go frame by frame exporting, but when I went to the file, it was a .mov of the first frame of my other file from clip 3.

This is frustrating. Any ideas on what is going on? The file size is 200 megs, so somehow Cine is exporting just the still of the first frame...

Any advice?

Kevin,

Hmmm... ok... let's try a couple of things for troubleshooting sake:

1) Before you render the 2nd clip, hit the "Invalidate" button if it is highlighted.

2) Do you get the same result rendering to a codec other than ProRes?

Best,

Lucas

 

[Andrew M.]

Pawel, I finaly made RedCine working on Dell Precision M6300 with Vista 64 bit Quadro FX3600M driver version 167.55 using QT V 7.3.5
Even stuck frame in QT H.264 rendering after 866 frames is gone once I switched from QT 7.4 to 7.3.5

Still struggling with NVIDIA 8800 on Dell XPS though, stuck frame on the first frame even when I switched to QT v 7.3.1.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I think it is still early days for Redcine. On one of my PCs it just displays blank screen instead of rendering a clip. On the second PC all rendering output is either black frames or white frames. I am also having similar problems to those you described. Some people seem to be able to get Redcine to work, but on my configuration this is not the case. I think the best thing at this stage is to wait for the fixes.

Hey Pawel,

I think the best thing to do is what Kevin is doing - work through troubleshooting issues to help isolate the problem!

For instance - your two issues both indicate a graphics card that is incompatible with REDCINE, or a compatible graphics card with really old drivers. Have you posted a logfile for your system?

Nothing gets better without accurate feedback.

Best,

Lucas

 

[Kevin Wild]

Luki, I got to do a few more tests. I stripped everything out of the project and started from scratch. Here is what I did:

-Brought a single clip into the library. Colored & changed name only. No other settings changed. Rendered to desktop. Worked great.

-Brought a second clip in...same thing. Only changed color & name. Worked great. BUT...

-As soon as I brought the 3rd clip in and exported that one to the desktop, I got the single frame error that everyone mentions. For some reason, Cine (on my system) does not like more than 2 clips.

As soon as I got rid of a clip and tried this 3rd clip again (which was now #2), it worked fine.

Does that help trying to find out this bug?

By the way, I don't see any "Invalidate" anywhere...not sure what you meant by that.

Thanks again. I REALLY hope this works soon. Jobs are coming up...I do not want to do 2 clips at a time.

Kevin

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Luki, I got to do a few more tests. I stripped everything out of the project and started from scratch. Here is what I did:

-Brought a single clip into the library. Colored & changed name only. No other settings changed. Rendered to desktop. Worked great.

-Brought a second clip in...same thing. Only changed color & name. Worked great. BUT...

-As soon as I brought the 3rd clip in and exported that one to the desktop, I got the single frame error that everyone mentions. For some reason, Cine (on my system) does not like more than 2 clips.

As soon as I got rid of a clip and tried this 3rd clip again (which was now #2), it worked fine.

Does that help trying to find out this bug?

By the way, I don't see any "Invalidate" anywhere...not sure what you meant by that.

Thanks again. I REALLY hope this works soon. Jobs are coming up...I do not want to do 2 clips at a time.

Kevin

Kevin,

Post a logfile to the logfile section, please...

Lucas

 

[Kevin Wild]

Lucas, I put the log file up.

I did the exact same test on another Intel Mac with the same results. I cannot get a 3rd clip to work without giving me just a still frame. Seems like a bug, unless others are getting this to work...

Kevin

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Lucas, I put the log file up.

I did the exact same test on another Intel Mac with the same results. I cannot get a 3rd clip to work without giving me just a still frame. Seems like a bug, unless others are getting this to work...

Kevin

Saw the logfile Kevin - nothing in it that screams "bad thing >here<"

I'll get back to you soon. Other debugging stuff I'm looking at.

Best,

Lucas

 

[Kevin Wild]

Lucas, here's another quick fix that REDCine needs (unless my system is doing something funny):

When you forget to change the file name and export again, it doesn't warn you, but instead just says that each frame isn't writing. Then, you don't get a file. Wouldn't it be easy, like the OS, to just say "file name take" or "replace existing file?" Just a thought.

One other question: I'm not sure the white balance is truly finding "true white." When I use the "eye dropper," what is the bluish color in the triangle where I point? Is that supposed to be as "white" as possible before I select? I'm not used to having this...using Final Cuts, you just point at white, but this seems to have some more variability to it.

Thanks!

Kevin