Real Time Chroma Keying

[dalen johnson]

Hello everyone,

Its been some time since I posted here - and even longer since I worked with video.

Some years back I worked with Final Cut Pro and Pinnacles Cinewave capture card which gave me real time chroma keying - something that I believe you could only get with something like the Avid Symphony at the time, at a much higher price.

Now Im looking at getting back into video - suppose here it is better to say digital cinema

I have looked at the HD options, and in honesty I think that Scarlet will be the camera I will want to go with. (Yes, its more than HD.)

In saying that I have been wondering if there are any cards out there that allow for real time chroma keying with HD and above. (Obviously Im asking for a lot once you get to 3k, etc.)

None the less I am curious to see if anything replaced the Pinnacle Cinewave for this one particular functionality in Final Cut pro. (Again dealing with footage of DVCPRo 50 and better...)

I hate renders...Ill be honest.
I like to play with my footage freely like Im in a sandbox throwing around sand.

Anyway, will be nice to hear what is on the market - I have taken a look but havent really seen anything specifically offering (with Final Cut) this one particular option.

Thanks for reading and hopefully there will be some cool news as far as options for real time chroma keying high res images.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
I would have put this in the Scarlet forum, but Im having issue in posting there.

 

[Craig Bowman]

... I hate renders...Ill be honest.
...

Then these are not the products for you. You can pull an HD signal out for monitoring and feed that into a product like Ultra to live key through its preview mode to check lighting etc., but you want to use recorded footage in the end on these products that means recording to .r3d on CF or Disk, Period. You then composite and render out.

These are not broadcast video cameras for doing the weather. They're digital cinema and use a completely different workflow. Think film style shooting and workflow.

 

[dalen johnson]

These are not broadcast video cameras for doing the weather. They're digital cinema and use a completely different workflow. Think film style shooting and workflow.

Thanks Craig for the response.

Wasnt sure, you never know what may be out there.
Technology advances so fast, and knowing that Cinewave was doing Realtime Chroma Keying back in 2004 for DVCPro 50 (and I believe even HD) I wasnt sure.

But thanks again, at least I know to be prepared for renders.
(Means no Macbook Pro, but more like Mac Pro to work with)

Again, thanks.

Peace

dAlen

 

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah real-time comps at 4K- not sure we're quite there yet in terms of raw processing power. Maybe in a few more years. Besides most of the time who has the background ready to go and synced up to the foreground on the shoot day? If you do, makes a lot more sense to shoot digital rear projection like they do on 24 and the movie Get Smart for example rather than bother with greenscreens and all of the attendant artificating they engender.

Noah

 

[dalen johnson]

If you do, makes a lot more sense to shoot digital rear projection like they do on 24 and the movie Get Smart for example rather than bother with greenscreens and all of the attendant artificating they engender.

Noah

Very true, rear projection would be a good alternative in that respect, and honestly something I havent even thought about.

As for 4k, it may be awhile more as you mentioned...though with all these multiple cores coming out, who knows.

Anyhow, I suppose for now Im holding out in hopes for a shorter term solution, such as for 2k...just seems like a solution in this area has to be around the corner.

"Rendering 'Rendering' Obsolete"

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
I love to pop different bkgs. in and see how they fit with the movement, etc. - this is where rendering is a pain.
Just the way I flow with things.

 

[Kenn Christenson]

With all that, said - it would sure be nice to, at least, have a "dirty" key to line up your shots.

I did a shot, a while ago where I had a miniature driving down a dirt road set. The miniature and the road had to line up with a live action road, shot earlier. I wound up doing the grease pencil on the monitor trick to get a rough line up, then taking test shots into AE to do test comps to make sure everything was lined up, properly - it was a pain!

 

[Dj Joofa]

Yeah real-time comps at 4K- not sure we're quite there yet in terms of raw processing power.

Nope, I don't see that as a hurdle even today. Can be done.

Maybe in a few more years. Besides most of the time who has the background ready to go and synced up to the foreground on the shoot day? If you do, makes a lot more sense to shoot digital rear projection like they do on 24 and the movie Get Smart for example rather than bother with greenscreens and all of the attendant artificating they engender.

Interesting that you mention the back projection. As far back as early 30's people were using analog projection techniques and shooting live actors in front for visual effects. If I remember correctly some visual effects in the classic King Kong from 30's were done that way. That gave way to analog chroma keying in 50's and then to digital chroma keying and now back to digital projection method. History manifests itself in interesting forms.

One thing that you might notice in those analog back projection was the apparently higher than usual contrast for the background, since film is projected at a higher contrast (and the contrast is brought back to close to normal using extraneous light sources in a theater).

(I was reading an old TV book from 50's and it described an analog projection method that seemed to me to be very close to TI's DLP projection methods.)

 

[dalen johnson]

With all that, said - it would sure be nice to, at least, have a "dirty" key to line up your shots...

...I wound up doing the grease pencil on the monitor trick to get a rough line up, then taking test shots into AE to do test comps to make sure everything was lined up, properly - it was a pain!

I believe there are quite a few out there that seem to agree with this line of thought - so it cant be long until a solution presents itself.

Anyway - for the time being, it looks as if I will hold off on any camera purchase, at least until the Scarlet 3k camera comes out early next year. (Instead of going with the lower offerings today.)
So who knows what will be out then as far as realtime chroma key solutions, etc... its over a half a year away until the Scarlet release and a lot happens within just a few months in the world of technology. - so Im keeping my eyes open on this one.

(Dreaming of all this on a macbook pro - yes, I know, pushing it.)

Peace

dAlen

 

[GlennChan]

I don't think real-time chroma keying is necessarily what you're looking for. If you're shooting a newscast or whatever then it has to be real-time. But if you are shooting a narrative-type production and you want good quality, then you'll likely want to fix issues in your key (hair, spill, etc. etc.) and that won't be a real-time process.

There are TV series shooting chromakey into five-figure keying hardware (e.g. Ultimatte) and 95%-100% of the shots are redone in post. (100% being ideal because usually the footage can be improved if redone.) So they don't even use the output of the real-time chromakey. Of course their needs are different than yours and their keys are complicated+challenging.

2- I think Conduit does real-time HD keys. I remember seeing that being done live at NAB.
http://www.dvgarage.com/prod/prod.php?prod=conduit15

 

[Noah Kadner]

My point exactly- number one RED doesn't output any sort of real-time 2K or 4K signal- it's HD only. So in that sense it's a moot-point. And ever if it weren't RT keying is not really all that useful. You spend so much more time on set making sure everything lines up perfectly and keys properly you burn off your day. Whereas you can do a nice key with all the time in the world in post in full 2K if you just go ahead and shoot to card for post-keying as you normally would.

Anyways- if anyone is interested in hiring a rear-projection company, and if you can afford the Ultimate RT $ystems chances are you can afford them- try Ted “Curly” Whitaker of Staging Techniques. I can PM you the number if you want.

They did the skydiving and driving sequences in Get Smart and to be honest I could not tell which shots were real, which were greenscreen and which were rear-pro. Totally seamless.

Noah

 

[N_Villers]

feel free to look me up once we get the camera

feel free to look me up once we get the camera

Szia Dalen - once we have our camera in september (here in budapest) feel free to come check it out. We will have a few green screen tests lined up for early october and I would love to experiment with some rear projections. Give a call if u want 36 30 541 8773.

udv. lonesillver

 

[dalen johnson]

Szia Dalen - once we have our camera in september (here in budapest) feel free to come check it out. We will have a few green screen tests lined up for early october and I would love to experiment with some rear projections. Give a call if u want 36 30 541 8773.

udv. lonesillver

Szia Lonesillver...

That is totally cool - I do believe I may take you up on your offer to stop by when you get your new RED in.

Would be interested in checking out your green screen test - totally enjoyed working with green screen when I lived stateside.

Thanks for the offer.

Peace

Dalen