Keying with Build 16.

[David Wakeley]

Hi,
New to RedUSer, mainly because I've had trouble sifting through the non essential to the essential.
However, I have a question of all you learned RedUsers, especially as a call to RED today reminded me it is 4 July in the US.
Loaded Build 16 (3.1.5), shot some key green tests - ie: normal, one stop under, one over etc. Using the new RedSpace shows wonderful flesh tones, but very flat fluoro colours - the key green & some fluoro pink tape we used.
Once in Flame, the key worked ok both with 3200k & 5600k sources (5600k still better). Using Rec709 the fluoro colours looked ok but the flesh tones were magenterish & unflattering. It would be nice to have the key looking good on set without having to carry a Flame box or similar around with me.
Any thoughts?
David Wakeley, Sydney.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I think you're saying that the fluorescent green colors look flat when monitoring RedSpace on set, but it works well when you get into the Flame?

That doesn't seem to be too terrible a problem. One day you might be able to load a custom color setup as a lookup table for viewing on set but for now I think you are stuck with the flat colors. They're a result of the trying to show the full raw range on a limited gamut monitor.

If the camera can record everything from neutral to green to ultra-ultra-ultra-green but the preview monitor you're looking at can only display between neutral and green then voila, green gets shown as washed-out green and ultra-ultra-ultra-green is shown as only normal green.

If you mapped it any other way then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ultra-ultra-ultra-green and green.

So, the benifits of seeing the full raw range usually outweigh the disadvantages, methinks?

Best would be to get a nice monitor with a REALLY wide gamut.

Or have I misunderstood you completely?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Greg M]

I just finished a green screen shoot and the keys came out great in our Smoke.
We lit the green screen 1 stop under and used all HMI sources.

Are you using Kinos, is that what you mean?

 

[David Wakeley]

Hello again,
Further to my request for key green results in build 16 - Redspace etc. I guess I am saying that I am in an area where some post houses are saying don't use RED because there are too many post hassles. I have tested #16 key green & two post houses have said using RedSpace the key green looks flat & hard to work with, but the flesh tones look great. Using Rec709 the flesh tones are crap but the key looks good. Rec709 is a video stream we should avoid I am advised, so RedSpace is the go, but why are the fluoro colours like key green so flat? Any thoughts would be welcome so I can appease next week's client!! Thanks, David Wakeley, Sydney.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

If you export log (which you should) the color SHOULD look flat and dull before CC. They really shouldn't pop. Then everything is right.

I find RedLog files excellent as a keying source.

Key
CC for plate
Comp
CC comp

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

EDIT: Gunleik you've been faster...

I had on different occasions excellent results witg GS, lit daylight and shot 4K 2:1. We used RedLog since it preserves of all gammas the most information in a 10Bit codec. Colours are generally flat with Red. That doesn't matter actually because for a fine key saturation is less important than say colour depth or artifacts. And even if the green looks flat for the key-app. it's fine. Please check 35mm 4k scans in this regard.

In my experience using green gels or extra-GS tubes in the kinos doesn't help the key but the unwanted green spill.

If you are uncertain about RedLog for skintones, use RedSpace in a second pass. So you can use RedLog for pulling the matte and RedSpace for the forground.

I haven't tested RedSpace for pulling a key yet but as with film I assume that leaving the GS as natural and unprocessed (no extra saturation, no contrast, no unneccassary gamma curves) leads to the best key also with RED.

Hans

 

[Ziggy Uszkurat]

Hi David,

I've just pulled over 60 keys in from Red green screen footage - we use Shake and Redlog gives excellent results - but you will need to colour correct your comps (as ours are 2k, we go straight to Color).

If you are comping with Shake PM me if you have any queries. I'll try to help on practical workflow...

Ziggx

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just remember - you are shooting Raw.

You don't shoot Redspace. It is color processing.

From what I've seen - 9 out of 10 times you are better off pulling from Redlog files exports - until such time as we can key directly from R3D in AE and Nuke -

 

[David Wakeley]

Thanks for the key input Guys.
David Wakeley.