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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DreamColor LP2480zx and Scratch

Seth Larney

Seth Larney

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Hey Lucas (and all),

We are putting together the final specs of our Scratch system and I'm looking into the feasibility of using the new DreamColor LP2480zx with Scratch and not having to use HD-SDI. We don't have any SDI decks currently and if the display is as accurate as HP claim then I'm hoping we may be able to get by without HD-SDI for now.

My question is about feeding 10-bit via anything EXCEPT HD-SDI from Scratch.

My understanding is that Scratch likes Nvidia cards, we are currently running a 8800GT in the machine that we are going to install Scratch onto but afaik the nvidia cards do not do 10-bit via DVI, (the firegl 7700 does via displayport) does anybody know anything about this? I do know that the Dual-Link DVI spec has provisioning for 10-bit though.. but that's just a spec.

Lucas, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, have you guys had a chance to test the Dreamcolor display yet? Do you have any advice on how I could feed it a 10-bit signal from Scratch? Obviously the Quadro's will output 10-bit via SDI, but the Dreamcolor display has no SDI.

Alternatively, the other option would be to just feed it an 8-bit signal via an Nvidia card from Scratch and make use of the display's good color fidelity for grading but in 8-bit viewing space until there is a video card option that will enable us to bump up to 10-bit. Most professional panels are 8-bit currently anyway.

We are an independant film production company and will be using the System for film DI work and commercials etc. We just outsource our HD-SDI layoff's (when needed) or master (or supply) our projects as data.

Would greatly appreciate any thoughts..
Thanks!
Seth.
 
Hi guys,

I think the answer for now is pretty simple. The Dreamcolor does not accept an SDI input. The NVidia cards do not do anything greater than 8-bit on DVI output.

Tab A does not fit into Slot B.

It would be cool for several applications if DVI would output greater than 8-bit. But it doesn't and probably will not anytime soon. So for right now, HD-SDI is the viable path.

Best,

Lucas
 
I'm wondering if there's a good, reasonably priced HD/SDI to HDMI 1.3 or Displayport i/o converter? Not being much of a video hardware geek I'm fairly unaware of the options, but wouldn't this be a reasonable way to feed the Dreamcolor?

I really hope manufacturers jump on displayport quickly - this seems to be a much nicer option than DVI & HD-SDI. Nvidia is listed as a supporter of the spec - anybody have an idea when they plan on releasing compatible hardware :)?

cheers,

jt
 
It's from a long time that i would ask to clarify this point : 8Bit DVI VS 10 Bit SDI,

Right now I am working as a retoucher in the photography business ,so i know pretty well how important is to have the right monitor for the Job , i am using The Eizo CG 211 (calibrated every weeks using the gretag Eye one Pro) and I have to say that what i see in my Eizo is really the same image that come out from my printer Epson 7800/4800 (also linearizated and profilated every months)

I am approaching to do the color grading of my stuff (actually i am still waiting my RED one...),so i am looking for the hardware and software etc...
And Scratch off course it's one possibility.

Talking about the monitor , i think that it's easy to understand that a dual link SDI display like the ecinema DPX is the best on the market , and i would trust it

But i really want to understand why and How a dual link SDI instead of a DVI connection could compromise the grading process,

Ok, 8 bit VS 10 Bit , but does it really compromise the grading?
I mean a monitor like the eizo CG241W wich offer hardware calibration and it cover the 96 of the adobe RGB it can't be considerate a good option because doesn't offer an SDI connection?

Or maybe this new HP?

What about grading a 444 material or RAW material using single link SDI ?
I can really understand the difference between grading 422 material instead of 444 material , but in terms of monitoring the grading could really change the results ?


PS: Off course i am talking about all the DVI monitor with a good LCD panel and not a monitor like the Apple Cinema Display etc...


So,are we sure that SDI is the only way to go to do a good job?
Or have an SDI monitor it's a must because many many hardware work with that standard?


PSS:what about the calibration procedure for the Dreamcolor? It's automatic hardware based or what?

Thanks


G
 
Thanks for the speedy reply Lucas :)

I guess the other option would be to use the panel via 8-bit DVI until more cards are available that support both the Dreamcolor and Scratch. Obviously this isn't as ideal as viewing 10-bits, but then most (all?) high end panels used for DI work actually display 8-bits anyway, right?

I guess the question would be :

Color accuracy of DVI aside. Would the fact that you are only feeding the panel 8-bits from the video card, have any nagative effect as opposed to a more standard approach of feeding the panel 10-bits and having it downconvert it to 8-bits before the lcd? Would we be losing any fidelity/accuracy? would it have any effect of luts etc? ... or is there something else that I am missing that would not make this viable (in theory) for DI work? (perhaps this is a question that can't be answered without testing, but I'm hoping that you might have an opinion Lucas?)

Even if we can't display 10-bits from Scratch to this panel, it would still seem to be a viable option for high end work? - providing that it does what HP says it does (obviously this is a big if).

Cheers,
Seth.
 
I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael
 
Thanks michael

Do you have any broadcast monitor to compare with the Dreamcolor?
Please teell us someting more how you decided for the Dreamcolor

So basically you use the HDlink to convert an SDI signal into DVI?

Thanks!

G
 
MichaelP said:
I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael
Click to expand...

Michael, check and does not see if the HDlink Pro out DVI at 10 bits or using HDMI 1.3 that support 10bits color. Lim
 
MichaelP said:
I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael
Click to expand...

Aha, thanks Michael!

Do you know if the output from the HDLINK over DVI/HDMI is 10-bit?

Are you connecting to the Dreamcolor via DVI or HDMI?

How is the color reproduction going through the HDLINK? Do you think that it would be a viable setup for color critical DI work?

Thank again!
Seth.
 
I am just starting the tests. I can go either DVI or HDMI from my Avid hardware. I chose the HDLink Pro so I can test 1D and 3D LUTs into the path. I am on vacation for the next two weeks, but will get back into when I return.

Michael
 
The Hdlink Pro does not support 10-bit output from the DVI output.

a bit of background here:
even though DVI and HDMI support the same signaling protocols, the DVI spec only allows for a maximum of 1920x1200 at 8 bits. If you go up to 10 bits, then those 2 extra bits need to be carried by dual-link DVI (most newer ATI video cards support this)

HDMI (the type you are used to using anyways) is single link only. So a simple adapter will not allow you to convert a dual-link DVI 10-bit output to HDMI even if it was available. (there is a dual-link type of HDMI, but for all intents and purposes it is obsolete)

The thing to look for when making sure a HDMI link will support 10-bit transport is that it is HDMI 1.3 or later certified (They call this feature "deep color")

The manual for the Gefen Converter above does not specify what version of HDMI it is compliant with, so an email to them might be in order.

As for the comment that any DI work is done on LCD monitors - Any reputable post house that is doing their 'color critical' work on an LCD right now would not be very reputable (at least if it was for a film finish). The only currently available LCD monitor that I'd even consider for a DI would be the sony BVM series of LCD monitors. (10-bit panels, LED backlight, black frame insertion, high quality processing...) It's all downhill from there. Most DI suites that I've been in also usually use projectors, and a good Christie projector will be able to display at least 12-bits.

The Dreamcolour looks promising though, but you've got to be sure everything in your image chain supports 10-bits - if using DVI that means software, drivers, operating system, video card, cables, monitor. HD-Sdi is rather simpler, needing only the hardware & monitor.

The reason we really need 10 bits (or higher) is that as we go to wide-gamut photography (beyond rec 709 colours) the 'steps' between 8-bit (per channel) colours become further apart (the primaries are further apart on the CIE chromacity chart). As a result, we begin to notice the transitions between colours as posterization. So you've got to up the bit-depth to compensate (smaller steps between the colours)

Of course, 10-bits also has advantages for us when we're working in rec 709, especially when we're in DI and we want to pull more detail out of a particularly compressed tonal range, the more data we have there to start, the more detail we can emphasize.

After that it all gets tossed out the window if it goes to broadcast (ATSC is only 8-bit).

So unless you're going to film, or blu-ray, you're finishing for an 8-bit medium. (and even if you're finishing for blu-ray, you have got to be sure the consumer's panel and player can support 10-bit...) It's going to be an uphill fight to get 10 bits all the way to the consumer/viewer over the next 15 years or so...

A good, calibrated, 8-bit display that covers 100% of rec 709/sRGB (same primaries & white point as sRGB) will be just fine for you if you're finishing for TV, for the next while anyways.

Cheers,
Ben Gervais
Digital Engineer / Freelance - Toronto
 
Trevor Meier said:
I wonder if Blackmagic's new Mini-converter will pass the full 10-bits per channel through to HDMI?

http://blackmagic-design.com/products/miniconverters/

I've sent an inquiry to check...
Click to expand...

This could be really interesting ..

According to the specs as listed here : compass.com/product/355697.html

..The unit does support 4:4:4 over dual link, which doesn't mean that it passes 10-bit out the HDMI, but it's a start.

It could be the solution providing it plays nicely.. please let me know what you hear back from BM!

Cheers,
Seth.
 
bgervais said:
As for the comment that any DI work is done on LCD monitors - Any reputable post house that is doing their 'color critical' work on an LCD right now would not be very reputable (at least if it was for a film finish). The only currently available LCD monitor that I'd even consider for a DI would be the sony BVM series of LCD monitors. (10-bit panels, LED backlight, black frame insertion, high quality processing...) It's all downhill from there. Most DI suites that I've been in also usually use projectors, and a good Christie projector will be able to display at least 12-bits.
Click to expand...

What about Cinemage?
 
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