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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why can't we all just get along?

www.cinematography.com is a total joke. Or perhaps I should say the "Red" forum is a total joke. I have spent 2 years reading the posts. At first, some of the stuff was very interesting and informative- and some things commented in there really made you neutral on taking sides. Now that the camera is out, it has proven it self without question- everything that goes on in that forum now is really a total joke. I only go in there for a laugh now.

When Phil said that the camera had the quality of a Cell Phone camera, I decided not to even try posting there anymore. I have been banned there 3 times. And guys- all I did was defend the RED camera. THATS IT!!!! I never insulted anyone.

So again, the entire website has some very good info about cinematography- but the RED forum is a complete tainted joke. What kills me, is that I see someone with a real qood question about the camera still posting there. Why?

I ask dumb questions here all the time, and no one flames me. I just don't get it.
 
Just take a look at the cinematography RED forum now. It is a ghost town. Hardly anyone new posts there anymore, and it is loaded with the same 10-15 guys who do nothing but bash the camera.

David is a complete exception. I read everything he posts, because he does stay neutral, and I want to read something that is true and not total bulls--t.
I really appreciate his time and devotion of posting info to us. Thank you David!
 
facetmedia said:
Older DPs will just use something else to create snobbery... be that either lenses, new camera bodies, lighting, location... "production value". Most of the snobs will just adapt to the Epic or an elitist camera body. No one will go down with the sinking ship. Also RED owners will just get inducted into the snob class and more than likely try to create power barriers to the video mob. Hence the migration to a more expensive camera body, scratch cine, 4k projectors, etc. It's all in the will for power.
Click to expand...

As an older DP Andrae your absolutly right my will for power IS all consuming. I'm awake all night thinking where will I find the power
on set tomorrow. What piece of elitist equipment can I use today. And yeah
bring on Epic, RED's just too cheap, I need more snobbery to do my job.
I need lenses, lighting, location and production value to make me look good.
Stuff pretty pictures, snob class and power barriers is where it's at.
You really got a handle on this thing man.
Thanks for opening my eyes on this very important topic.
Cheers Mezmo
 
mezmo said:
As an older DP Andrae your absolutly right my will for power IS all consuming. I'm awake all night thinking where will I find the power
on set tomorrow. What piece of elitist equipment can I use today. And yeah
bring on Epic, RED's just too cheap, I need more snobbery to do my job.
I need lenses, lighting, location and production value to make me look good.
Stuff pretty pictures, snob class and power barriers is where it's at.
You really got a handle on this thing man.
Thanks for opening my eyes on this very important topic.
Cheers Mezmo
Click to expand...

You're more than welcome.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
You choose which side you take your stand on. You can jump aboard the next new wave and be present at it's creation and guide it through your expertise and wisdom, or you can hold on to the old way and go down with your ship. We all know how it will shake out: the young will embrace the new technology and the old will cling to the past. All the snobbery, rudeness, hostility and resentment in the world won't change it.
Click to expand...

This statement illustrates exactly the problem you're purporting to explain. There are no "sides," and age has absolutely nothing to do with technology in the film business. If as a younger person with less experience one wants to convince oneself that age is the only factor that's holding one back, I can't prevent that. But the notion that "the young" are the only ones who embrace progress and that "the old" are the ones who don't is emblematic of the problem, because it's just not true. And age is not the real issue here, experience is. The more experienced shooters are a bit wary of new things, especially ones that are made by companies that have not been a part of the industry in the past, because they know from that experience what works and what doesn't, at least for their own particular shooting and working style. The notion of always needing to "question authority" originated with a previous generation, and is clung to quite tenaciously by a lot of us. As a professional, you don't suddenly abandon everything you have and know that works well in favor of something untested and untried that might or might not be an improvement. You look at it, evaluate it, test it, learn its strengths and limitations, and then, perhaps, you start using it on "real" jobs. That way, you continue to do your best work using the knowledge and skills you've gained after years of experience. Sometimes the very people brought up in this forum as those that are admired in the Red community are not "the young". Steven Soderbergh, for example, is 45. David Mullen is 46. Peter Jackson is 47. And the last time I checked, Jim Jannard is in his mid to late 50's.

The exercise of caution in one's professional working life is not the product of age. It is the product of experience. And the avoidance of untried equipment is not indicative of personal prejudice. It's simply a need to know that things work - in a reliable and predictable way - before you put yourself on the line in your career by using them. Red cameras have been shipping for about a year. You are now just beginning to see them used on some higher end productions. That is not an untypical time frame in any industry for the adoption of technology that is significantly different than the time tested and proven technology that is already in place. To imply that this has anything to do with some kind of birthright is to ignore the facts, and to harp on such a thing indicates a lack of patience that is, well, typical of "the young."
 
mmost said:
To imply that this has anything to do with some kind of birthright is to ignore the facts, and to harp on such a thing indicates a lack of patience that is, well, typical of "the young."
Click to expand...

Amen. Heck the feeling that I get is that a lot of people with lesser equipment or a modicum of 35mm experience actually think that RED users are the snobs.
 
laguun said:
Just recently some posters claimed they couldnt get more than 8 stops out of red, or that there would be 32GB c/f cards from red etc.
.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I am not sure with build 15 & tungsten light you will get much more than 8 stops. With daylight build 15 I got over 9.

In time there will be a 32GB card from Red, just not yet I wish there was.

Stephen
 
"older (experieced ) DP's " usually have to work within a established workflow that is already in place so they will have lots of questions about any new equipment to make sure it can fit within that workflow or to see what needs to be done to get it to work AND in the end it is not the DP that decides post workflow...bottom line it is the Producer to make the call if they are going to try to add something new to the post workflow (& on set workflow) ...

i really don't think it is the "older (experienced) DP's " that are worried about Red ... IMO it is the DP's working their way up the past 4+ years ( whom tend to just see everybody as competition) ...one needs to get experience and on the no or low budget projects a producer may decide whom to hire based on which DP has access to a RED at a low price ...
 
weirdcrew said:
Ohh ABSOLU F... LUTELY :whistling: but I thought we were talking about .net???

SORRY


Fredrik
Click to expand...

Hi,

Both sites have been mentioned in this thread.

Stephen
 
(I should be working on the script to my Late Father's book about his adventures in the FFL and going AWOL and escaping from Africa only to find True Love, for all the time this post has taken me, but more than one thing, and more than one site, can be important to gaining an understanding of what's what in the ever exciting and changing world of film/digital cinematography!)...

Well. I've mentioned before for some unknown reason that I'm 43 and I've been cheering RED ONE on since I plunked down my deposit. Obviously. A great-looking professional package that rivals or surpasses film on the screen, (or is worse than a cell phone camera? I've never heard that one before! But who would or could ever take that post seriously?)....

To tell the truth, I was nervous when I decided to buy RED; but this forum makes me more sure of my decision everytime I log on. I actually think the categories work quite well. If you have a serious tech Q, you can search the base or start a thread, no problems. The deep tech is left to those who know what they're talking about. (That's why my posts don't show up there, YET!)

However, if you start a thread you may be open to those with no clue or idea to what they're talking about and they're just looking for the latest topic to respond to. I don't know. But I'm guilty of flapping my gums where I shouldn't of, a couple or few times since I've joined Reduser. But I'm growing, with the camera itself, I might add. And if I want to go off topic, or into left field, this site has those designated areas.

I think I can even document my own evolution as a Reduser. From bandwagon-football fan-like boozer, all other cameras are now shite, to a more refined, serious hopefully money-making user of the end product, due to my great productions in no small part facilitated by RED ONE + all the great feedback and info from Redusers, a success in my own mind...

It's not snobbery. From what I see and what I keep learning everyday, is that the proof is in the pudding. No DOP worth his salt is going to reject any tech without finding out the truth for him or herself. If he or she can shoot better and easier (screw the elitist adjectives and snobbery that could be used here!), and most importantly deliver the image called for by the script, why wouldn't they check it out without bias?

Can we talk about higher and lower level camera people? (I just watched, "Gone Baby Gone" this evening. Obviously Mr. Affleck Sr. should give up acting!). Point being: I went to a seminar on the Arri435 when I was in film school in Vancouver and the CamOp working for XFiles giving it said he picked his gigs carefully, because he "hated" 90% of the people in the film industry. You've got to find like-minds.... I think Reduser is doing an admirable job for being an open forum sporting a new, ever-changing technological innovation that's busting doors off of an established system.

I warned you I was a bandwagon member...

Few remember the revolt of the candlemakers when electricity was introduced.

Anyways, I've surfed cinematography.com and found good info, but I haven't gone down to the "RED-devil-level" as I didn't know it existed, and I don't think I've surfed cinematography.net, yet.
On which forum is RED so bashed? Is it both equally, or one more than the other? And who is surfing so much that they actually have the answer?

I want to become a member of the worst site, simply to see what happens if I post a positive remark and maybe a link to some RED-shot footage. It can't be as bad as you all are saying. How can a forum be run by donkeys out of control?
 
Definitely started off being about cinematography.com which is undeniably a joke site, but cinematography.net (Geoff Boyle's universe) I would have thought to be a bit more balanced about it (I stopped subscribing ages ago...too dry for the likes of me!:wink: ).

One thing that strikes me about the unhelpful response received by the motion control chap Fredrik mentioned (I think I know who you mean) is that on cinematography.net they have, or used to have, a strictly-moderated "pro" section which might be an idea for Reduser.net for serious, technical questions. I remember from my days subscribing to cinematography.net that unless you really knew what you were talking about you'd be mad to post on the pro forum, you'd just be eaten up for breakfast, which helps to filter out a lot of the "noise".

I think on any forum in any industry you get idiots pretending they run the show flaming people and generally being unhelpful, but separating queries into "pro" & "newbie" (I hate that word!) sections might help that - people with a lot of technical knowledge can find basic questions that can be answered with a simple search kind of tedious, whereas trolls who don't really know what they're talking about would get found out pretty quickly in a "pro" section. Another thing that might help is having real names compulsory...might help to cut down on the unnecessary flaming?
 
In my experience, cinematography.net has fairly useful Red-related technical discussions with occasional expression of reasonable professional skepticism.

Cinematography.com, on the other hand... well, the Red forum there seems to be dominated by a type of elitism which seems to hold that you basically shouldn't bother trying to make a movie unless you can afford to do it the way Hollywood does. I've run into this over there again and again. To hear certain members of that forum tell it, Nikon lenses are useless, desktop color grading is impossible (and nobody can grade a feature without years of experience), a respectable FCP edit bay costs $100K+ (and still isn't good enough to online a feature), a matte box has to cost $4K, and the cost savings of digital acquisition are irrelevant because any serious movie costs so much that the price of film is no big deal.

The real underlying reason why the RedUser crowd and the Cinematography.com crowd don't get along, as I see it, is because the RedUser crowd is far more focused on practical low-cost do-it-yourself solutions, while many posters in the Cinematography.com Red forum seem to reject that entire approach to filmmaking out of hand.
 
Perhaps RED users have a persecution complex due to their outsider status?
 
facetmedia said:
Perhaps RED users have a persecution complex due to their outsider status?
Click to expand...

red isnt the outsider - in fact redusers are becoming the majority of the 35mm market. Btw - i like the term avantgarde meanwhile more than pioneer, the pioneer stage imho was Q2-4/2007.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I am not sure with build 15 & tungsten light you will get much more than 8 stops. With daylight build 15 I got over 9.
Click to expand...
We use HMI - tungsten is a poor choice for red. 9 is easy, 10 requires skill. 11 is, imho, "lab".

Stephen Williams said:
In time there will be a 32GB card from Red, just not yet I wish there was.
Stephen
Click to expand...
In the future there will be many things.

However a misinformed c.com poster announced that red would deliver 32GB (instead of 16GB) next, i hope that post was changed meanwhile.

I personally wish that the cf cards come down quick (being spoiled by 50min for 27 bucks on hdcam, and yes, hdcam tape is reuseable) and will be *very* happy once the c/fs reach 128~256GB, which according to moores law would be ~2010-12.
 
I post in both places.

Generally, the people at reduser are friendlier. The people at cinematography.com can be grumpy and somewhat ungregarious. Not all, but many. There is not much of a sense of community there; more a sense of a bunch of mercenaries barely able to put up with one another. On the other hand, the amount of knowledge there is impressive, at times. You can get very detailed and complicated cinematography questions answered.

Also, there is the entertainment factor. I'm pretty sure this is partially why Jim still posts there. :) There are a few guys at cinematography.com who are so outlandish in their worship of chemical film that it becomes comical to read their posts. I think they will go to their graves clutching a reel of Kodak Vision2 35mm film....

This forum grew really, really fast, while cinematography.com has been sort of standing still. If you post something at cinematography.com, you have to wait several days to even have someone respond sometimes, whereas here, you will have 2 pages of responses in the first day if the topic is interesting.

Also, a lot of people gripe about being bashed here and how we are all koolaid drinkers who spend our days polishing Jim's shoes .... yeah right. There are plenty of people here who are level-headed and who try to take an even approach to all cameras. There are lots of positive posts about the Sony EX1 in the off topic forum, for example.
 
Tom said:
Also, a lot of people gripe about being bashed here and how we are all koolaid drinkers who spend our days polishing Jim's shoes .... yeah right.
Click to expand...

LOL... well that does sound like a good description of most posts in the recon section. Heck I would be spit shining shoes too if there weren't so many other RED users in front of me.

:biggrin:
 
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