Still having downconversion issues...are you out there RED?

[Leo Ticheli]

Thank you, Gunleik!

I will send you a link to the footage as soon as I get into the studio. I must tell you that we sent the file to the nice guys are RedBoxx, and they were not able to make an acceptable down-conversion.

I don't have the reference to their post on the subject at hand, but there was a post here from Assimilate saying that an additional system was needed for high quality down-conversion.

Best regards,

Leo

 

[amrrahmy]

rewriting the post, damn mouse.

scaling and conversion requires knowhow of the working of digital interpolators. Being able to judge their quality is essential for anyone doing scaling.

people that r doing there own posts need to have basic knowledge about scaling and down sampling. how are they going to adjust or modify something in the seen(scene) that needs work done if he doesn't know how that image is made, obtained, sotred in the pixels and how to do a simple reduction.
and u dont need that much direction for digital interpolators:
one for reduction
one for enlargement
one for smooth gradients
and from what i read in other posts, there is even a 2:1 high quality reduction option in redcine(why not use that).
and again once u saw the image at fcp that's not a red issue anymore,

i cant believe people are complaining that the image is too big and have allot of information, come on!!!

 

[Greg M]

With all due respect, the nice guys at RedBoxx build computers why would you expect them to be experts at down converting footage?

A thought-
Have you tried After Effects? We have also successfully used AE to output many TV spots from Red 2K DPX files (from the original 4K) and they all look great. The key is to go straight from RedCine to DPX, dont use the proxies and dont use ProRes.

 

[Ed Watkins]

Leo,
A thought-
Have you tried After Effects? We have also successfully used AE to output many TV spots from Red 2K DPX files and they all look great. The key is to go straight from RedCine to DPX, dont use the proxies and dont use ProRes.

Sorry to cross post, but this is the route I think I'll go down. Forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple way to take an FCP sequence into AE?

 

[Greg M]

Sorry to cross post, but this is the route I think I'll go down. Forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple way to take an FCP sequence into AE?

If you are concerned with quality, dont use fcp! Use it to generate your EDL, then export DPX files DIRECTLY from RedCine.

 

[Greg M]

1. Sequence is set to Apple Pro Res 422 1080 23.98, playback set to same.
2. Kona 3 is set to primary: 1080 23.98psf, secondary: 525i 23.98. (setting secondary to 23.98p has no effect)
3. HD Link set to play back both HD and SD to Cinema Display.

Joe,
Have you tried taking the HD Link out of the equation (imo it is a pos)?

 

[amrrahmy]

image is not suppose to be 4k in fcp, u need to adjust all the metadata, remove the 1.5 factor and then import it to fcp.

by the time red epic would be available, the new snow leopard and fcs would be available. perfect timing.

 

[amrrahmy]

although people are not using the right setup for using fcs doesn't make it an offline software, and free software does perfect image reduction as well by the way.
because something costs only a fraction of flame or whatever other software will cost doesn't mean it's less of a program.

 

[amrrahmy]

The key is to go straight from RedCine to DPX, dont use the proxies and dont use ProRes.

right on the money, and prores is only for fast broadcasting solutions for tv productions, and not post work.

 

[Sam Roberts]

[QUOTE;Have you tried After Effects? We have also successfully used AE to output many TV spots from Red 2K DPX files (from the original 4K) and they all look great. The key is to go straight from RedCine to DPX, dont use the proxies and dont use ProRes.[/QUOTE]

HI...this is interesting. Do you mean edit DPX files in AE?

 

[Sam Roberts]

Have you tried After Effects? We have also successfully used AE to output many TV spots from Red 2K DPX files (from the original 4K) and they all look great. The key is to go straight from RedCine to DPX, dont use the proxies and dont use ProRes.

HI...this is interesting. Do you mean edit DPX files in AE? Bypass FCP altogether?

 

[Greg M]

HI...this is interesting. Do you mean edit DPX files in AE? Bypass FCP altogether?

We only use FC to create an EDL. Some online in fc, but if you are concerned with quality its not the best option. DPX files currently look significantly better than working w/ QT in FC.

So to answer your question, not entirely...use FC and the QT proxies to create your EDL. Then render your selects as DPX files and online those for your final master.

 

[Dj Joofa]

I have a few points to add. I must say I'm very disappointed at our failure to find a solution here at RedUser.

...

9. If you have a software solution, POST IT!!!

Leo, I posted before also and I want to stress again that the solutions to this problem (at least a common similar problem) exist in the research community. In fact all the way back till 1948 people were researching similar topics (though not exactly the same)!!!

The typical hardware/software solution described here all revert to low pass filtering in one way or the other. They might work in some cases/footages but perhaps not always, unless the amount of blurr added is overwhelming.

I would tend to think that there exist software solutions that go beyond low pass filtering in one way or the other but I am not sure if they are readily available in the form of plugins/etc. for common software such as After Effects, etc. Though it may be not difficult to make plugins for Shake/After Effects/etc. for such purposes. It is just a matter of time.

 

[conrad gaunt]

9. If you have a software solution, POST IT!!!

Best regards to all,

Leo

My tool is designed to downsample without producing temporal jitter and to be pinsharp without doing anything subjective (Like PS CS etc). I wrote it after your first thread. Limited to image sequence input/ output (including some 16bit tiffs), but all floating point processing, and reasonably quick. If you have tried it, please let me know how it does, or please post the ftp details again and I`ll try it. If you haven`t tried it, why not, please?
I may be wrong, but around here it feels like only Companies can be trusted by some people to create software or hardware that works, or get any feedback, which is disappointing for those of us who can program hundreds of different styles of resampler, and are NOT fixated with a real-time paradigm or targeting mass market needs, above quality.

free HQ software downsampler link:

updated link and software, multi-format:
www.northyorkshirecamerahire.com/tds48bit.zip

 

[Chris Pickle]

I have a few points to add. I must say I'm very disappointed at our failure to find a solution here at RedUser.

1. I often shoot subjects that are challenging for NTSC, fine lines and high contrast. If you're not attempting to down-convert such material, you are not aware of the problems. By the way, I've seen the same problem on footage shot on 35MM film; it's not just a Red problem, but 35MM film is typically down-converted with very sophisticated hardware down-converters. I suspect many Red owners do not have such equipment.

2. Even those with lofty credentials have failed to do a really good job of down-converting such files via software. We put a sample file on our ftp server and NO ONE was able to down-convert it acceptably to my standards.

3. We've experienced the aliasing on a variety of monitors, including broadcast CRTs.

4. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our systems; we're not new at this.

5. If you are down-converting via Kona 3 or FCS and you find the results pleasing, you are either working with very favorable footage or you have low standards of acceptable image quality.

6. We're continuing to experiment with compressor settings, but the results are not acceptable so far.

7. All hardware solutions so far have produced dramatically superior results, except for one manufacturer, which proved worthless. The Kona 3 built-in converter is also very weak.

8. Some have looked at still frames and declared that there is no aliasing problem; the problem is with MOVING pictures, not still frames.

9. If you have a software solution, POST IT!!!

Best regards to all,

Leo

Hi Leo,

You should know better than to ask any question on this board that might even slightly be implied as a slight to the Red camera. The fan-boys will tear you apart. How dare you speak out-loud of such things. This forum is only intended for pure adulation and not for finding solutions for potential challenges.

As well, it doesn't matter if you have many years of experience as a working professional. Most people here are much more certain of the camera's awesomeness and your only hope is if you finally lay down and except that fact.

Finally, even though most homes still have a CRT TV, you must realize that the Red footage "looks fantastic in 4k" which renders all owners of CRT, idiots.

:devil:

Good Luck.

 

[amrrahmy]

1. I often shoot subjects that are challenging for NTSC, fine lines and high contrast. If you're not attempting to down-convert such material, you are not aware of the problems. By the way, I've seen the same problem on footage shot on 35MM film; it's not just a Red problem, but 35MM film is typically down-converted with very sophisticated hardware down-converters. I suspect many Red owners do not have such equipment.

just to put it in ur face, upload a 5 sec clip, and i will converted using only freeware software.

 

[laguun]

Leo,

the downconversion quality is not defined by the red camera, but by the postproduction workflow, the used tools and the artists knowledge.

To get excellent scaling, the following rules should be respected:

- avoid generations (downscale *once*)
- use high-quality interpolators (Apple FCP, Color, DVD Studio have no HQ 4K interpolators)
- start with the original quality (so, no proxys, no prores etc)
- if possible, use continous scaling factors (dividing by 2 will result in less moirees, dividing by 3 will generate more, especially when using bilinear instead of bicubic filtering).
- learn and understand (the downscaling quality is *not* caused by a camera or a starting resolution, but by the steps in the post route).

What you might want to test out is:
- render 4K dpx, max quality, full process, lanc/cubic filter in Redcine
- use discreet combustion/flame/infero (combustion in "best" mode as its bicubic filtering then) to scale down to the *final* resolution
- use multipliers as .46, .48., .50, .26, .28 etc for this, not .33172 etc.

As hardware downconversion, we are using Sony HDCAM Systems. They are very good and allow the full control of most scaling parameters (as edge detection, luma sharpness, chroma sharpness, amount of frequency dampening over time, frequency damping per frame, PsF or non PsF display vertical detail and all the other basic ~20 parameters to control downconverts.).

While i really like the AJA and blackmagic hardware, i am afraid they are missing most of these necessary controls to adjust downconversion. The same is valid for FCP. So you certainly might consider using higher quality postproduction software if better quality is your goal. For FCP i cant give tips, we mainly use it as offline editor, and for the houndreds of hours of downconverts from red (and thousands of hours of 35mm and hdcam) we dont use it - as we had pretty similar quality issues with it as you have now.

p.s.
Adobe CS3 (which we dont use for DC) supports 4K, as does it support the full RGB chromabandwith and offers better scaling algos especially when using AE Filters inside of PPro - FCP offers none of those. Maybe worth a try as well.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

it's one thing to be ignorant(that's totally acceptable and understandable), but justifying ur failure in expense of the red camera or fcs is not.

try to blame something else for ur shortage.

wow...

 

[Greg M]

Leo,

the downconversion quality is not defined by the red camera, but by the postproduction workflow, the used tools and the artists knowledge.

To get excellent scaling, the following rules should be respected:

- avoid generations (downscale *once*)
- use high-quality interpolators (Apple FCP, Color, DVD Studio have no HQ 4K interpolators)
- start with the original quality (so, no proxys, no prores etc)
- if possible, use continous scaling factors (dividing by 2 will result in less moirees, dividing by 3 will generate more, especially when using bilinear instead of bicubic filtering).
- learn and understand (the downscaling quality is *not* caused by a camera or a starting resolution, but by the steps in the post route).

What you might want to test out is:
- render 4K dpx, max quality, full process, lanc/cubic filter in Redcine
- use discreet combustion/flame/infero (combustion in "best" mode as its bicubic filtering then) to scale down to the *final* resolution
- use multipliers as .46, .48., .50, .26, .28 etc for this, not .33172 etc.

As hardware downconversion, we are using Sony HDCAM Systems. They are very good and allow the full control of most scaling parameters (as edge detection, luma sharpness, chroma sharpness, amount of frequency dampening over time, frequency damping per frame, PsF or non PsF display vertical detail and all the other basic ~20 parameters to control downconverts.).

While i really like the AJA and blackmagic hardware, i am afraid they are missing most of these necessary controls to adjust downconversion. The same is valid for FCP. So you certainly might consider using higher quality postproduction software if better quality is your goal. For FCP i cant give tips, we mainly use it as offline editor, and for the houndreds of hours of downconverts from red (and thousands of hours of 35mm and hdcam) we dont use it - as we had pretty similar quality issues with it as you have now.

p.s.
Adobe CS3 (which we dont use for DC) supports 4K, as does it support the full RGB chromabandwith and offers better scaling algos especially when using AE Filters inside of PPro - FCP offers none of those. Maybe worth a try as well.

Excellent summary, I agree the AJA and especially the Blackmagic are very weak at down conversion. We downconvert all our final masters in either Smoke or thru the Sony HDCAM SR deck and both provide excellent results whether its Red 4K originals or 35mm 2K scans, they both look very nice.

Bottom line is Red is not the issue here its the process, and as laguun said, the more steps you add to the down conversion, the more problems you introduce.

 

[Greg M]

it's one thing to be ignorant(that's totally acceptable and understandable), but justifying ur failure in expense of the red camera or fcs is not.

try to blame something else for ur shortage.

Hopefully your choice of words are due to poor translation, but this really isn't appropriate.