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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Free opinions anyone?

B

Ben Staley

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I've been reading this forum for several months. Lurking.. A little jealous that I didn't have a RED. Okay.. a LOT jealous.. liking more and more of what I saw, what I read.

I co-founded a production company last year we invested in an HPX 500, some of you might be familair. I have loved the p2 workflow (LOVE IT) but am wanting more in a camera. I am a DP and a director. And when I direct, I am my own DP. 95% of the time anyways, thats how I like it. I shot a feature last year for someone else and I shoot the occasional music video, etc.. for other people, but my focus is on our own work, on directing.
Heres an extended, uncut reel and a couple recent videos I shot to give you an idea of my DP work and where I'm at.

http://www.benstaley.com/dp/


I have a few specific questions I'd like answers too if some of you would not mind helping. And as a last note.. I hope none of this is redundant here. I've been reading a ton of these posts.
Thanks!

(1) I have never shot film. But... I am actually very attracted to the "film-like" approach that seems required using the RED. The most advanced camera I've ever used are ENG style cams, like the Veri-cam or HPX. I find the creative walls I hit are almost always due to the lens I have. Will the RED be too much of a step up for someone like me? I am not intimidated by technology or technique. I am largely self taught anyways. Opinions?

(2) Personal, I do a lot of "outside the box" experimental projects. Can I use the RED without an AC, pull focus on the fly, etc, and not make a mess. I do this all the time with ENG style cams.. Will it work with RED?

(3) I am only going to get one of these babies if I can keep it busy all the time. I'm gonna get a big package with all the bells and whistles and rent it when I'm not shooting. But.. I don't want to work real hard at this. Heh heh. Do you current owners find that the demand is staying ahead of the supply? Thoughts, opinions? Did buying a RED up your game, so to speak...

(4) Like most of you, I love the business model I see here and the commitment from RED to the users. I love the fact that my camera might not be obsolete in 18 months... Amazing in my opinion. What's the worst thing about owning/using a RED?

(5) And.. what's the single BEST thing about owning a RED. Be as specific as possible please.

I will most likely have more questions if this post gets any responses. Thanks for your time.

Cheers.
 
Nice stuff on your reel, Ben-

Quiz Answers-

1) You'll love 35mm optics. Primes and super shallow depth of field take some getting used to -

2) It can be done, but it's a bit more intensive and slower than slapping on a battery and throwing in a tape. So is film, but people do it all of the time. That being said, It's good to have friends.

3) All depends on who you know that wants to rent your camera, glass, support gear etc... Rentals can be tough...

4) Shooting with cameras other than Red. No BS. I've shot with a wide variety of cameras in the last couple of weeks - they're all great images, but they still don't compare.

5) There is no "single" best thing. For us, there are many "best" things. RAW, Speed, Optics, digital workflow, 4K, 2K, 120fps, massive production cost savings.... and extremely pretty pictures.

There's one response, anyway.
 
Ben,

You have a lot going for you in your work. I see an awareness and really like the unobtrusive style. I think some of the solutions feel really organic and born of the best school IMHO of trial and error, those moments beyond referance but arrived at to break a previous limitation.

I too am an autodidact and watching your stuff is really refreashing it confirms some of my hunches. It seems you are aware of your own stylistic pitfalls so I am I sure with a RED in your possesion you will easily be in a position to launch yourself into the big leagues.

Get one. Own it.

DogDay
 
Agreed. In his case however from what I could gather he is freelancing but has his focus on his own projects which he not only shoots but directs. But I hear exactly where you are coming from. Loud and clear.

DogDay


_
 
Hi Ben,

Great Post! I recognize your situation because I work the same way, directing and filming together sometimes with a JVC GY-HD 201 (nice camera for this kind of work).
Having seen your showreel I would't worry too much about focus problems and things like that. Your work is beautiful, your approach is great, I'm sure you can use the Red and overcome problems that come with new techniques.
Being in the same position as you are I don't like to rent. Whenever neccesary I have to, but everytime I use my own I will make more money, I will understand my own camera better and I can test whenever I like.
 
1) Judging from your stuff, get the Red. Take the step up. It won't go to waste on you. Your stuff will get even better and look even more professional. You'll love the added details in the shadows and highlights.

2) Yes. There's a whole thread about it. It's doable.

3) Be realistic. Only get one if...? There are already a lot of Reds sold and that will continue as word gets out and the camera and images get better and better. The price range puts this ball game in a whole new paradigm, no one can say for sure what it's going to be like renting Red out if you're not a rental professional (and you're not). So maybe it's better to ask yourself, "If I can't keep it busy, is it worth it for me?"

4) Waiting for... [insert what you want here... birger mount, build 16, sdk, 3rd party stuff, etc. etc.]

5) No one else determines your future. You are your own boss.

By the way, my opinions aren't for free. So I'll be expecting your check for 2 cents (it better not bounce). Or should it be 5 cents? (How does it go again... penny for your thoughts)? :)
 
Ben,
Be very thoughtful when making this decision. And more importantly be realistic. There are probably 500 Red One cameras in LA now and may be over 1000 by the time you have yours. Do not assume people will be knocking down your door trying to rent it unless you do the networking necessary. Also don't think this is an investment on par with the HPX500. You will spend more on a set of 30 year old used primes than that entire camera package. Pretty much nothing from that camera will work well on your Red. To really put together a working package (That anyone will pay to rent) you need $30K before glass and AKS. Figure another $10-$30K if you're lucky enough to get an 18-85 or Red Primes. The competition out there is fierce, the good news is most of the producers are loving what they see, so more and more productions will be seeing Red. Honestly though, it becomes much harder to direct/DP once you have a full camera dept. to think of and you really do need at least three people to effectively run a Red One on a high pressure production. I don't care what others say if your really want to get things in focus at least some of the time you will need a good AC. Also, it takes a very special talent to be both a good director and a good DP and then even more to be both at the same time.
Look at your productions and look at your bank account and ask yourself if you can realistically take on this responsibility.
 
Just shot a tv pilot with the HPX500 even though I got my RED about a week earlier. I just wasn't ready to shoot with the RED because I hadn't got the workflow down at that point.

The HPX500 is a great cam. I also love the p2 workflow and I've shot film since 1977.

As far as comparing the RED to the HPX, you can actually shoot 2k with the RED with a 16mm zoom lens and have a VERY similar user experience, in terms of focusing, depth of field, pulling focus your self, etc. The P2 card experience is remarkably similar to the RED's CF card experience. I've found that many inexpensive 16mm lenses cover RED 2k, which is very close in size to the 3 chips in the HPX500.

But you can also move toward the 3k and 4k sensor areas on the RED with Nikon mounted primes and get more of that 35mm look. Then of course your depth of field collapses, which is what you are after, and you have to run a tape measure out and get a good focus puller. Beyond this, expense-wise, are PL mounted primes and zooms that are now VERY hard to find.

Then again, a friend of mine shoots lots of 35mm film for Getty, Corbis, Image Bank and he shoots with his Arri 35III and 35 Zeiss speeds and pulls his own focus. But he's not doing traditional feature filmmaking, he's doing stock photography.

As for rental, I think Evin has nailed this one. Just too many REDs out there in competition. I hear a lot of RED buyers trying to justify their purchase by saying they are also going to make money in rental.

If you can make coin from rental, great, but really, the RED cam is such a fabulous tool that you should just feel good about buying it for what it will do for you.
 
Yeah, Evin's advice is really good. Read it about 10 times.

Unless you have known renters lined up I'd guess it would be very tough competition. Rental houses have the big edge. It's what they do and they've got the clients. Besides them, many owner operators come with their package factored into the deal.

I think a decent reason to get a RED is you love to shoot all the time and you want the highest quality images available outside of film. It's a lifestyle choice. Would you get more out of a sports car or adventure travel? If you think buying RED alone is going to make you money, I don't think that's the case. If you were in a smaller market where you were the only game in town THEN I think RED would probably get you into a lot of conversations.

Other than that, why not rent one when you get a gig?

Technically, if you're passionate you'll work your butt off with RED and get it all working. I think you'll want someone pulling focus on shots where the camera and the talent are moving. With stationary camera and talent hitting marks you can probably do it if you really want to.

I think the biggest trick to RED is coloring in post. Every owner/operator will have to become a colorist to some degree or their stuff will never live up to its potential.

Best thing about owning RED is you can pack it up and go shoot right now today by yourself and get the best damn results outside of film. You don't have that nagging feeling that you wish you were on a better camera.

Worst thing is realizing a lot of smaller, faster projects simply don't set up well for RED. Yet. We'll see what the workflow gods bring along with the runup to Scarlet.
 
First off, nice reel.

1. I wouldn't plan a shoot the day after you get the camera, but all in all you shouldn't have any trouble adjusting.

2. It depends on what you're shooting and the camera is very configurable. However, I'd call it a Cinema style camera that can be adapted to work like an ENG style camera, but its strength is in the Cinema style workflow. As people have said, you get the most from the camera if you have a crew (1st A.C., 2nd A.C./data wrangler for a basic camera department).

3. If you're an individual renting can be tricky (see here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=221884 ). If you're going to do it often and properly it can turn into a full time job. At the moment, I wouldn't feel comfortable renting mine out without being on set with it. I wouldn't get the camera with the expectation of renting it out and making your money back.

4. As with anything on the forefront of technology, there will be frustrations (but when is there not frustration with new technology, or even old technology).

But really, all in all the camera just works (and from what I've heard from people who've shot with them, this is just not the case with some of the other digital cinema cameras. That tech that comes with the rental, he's there for a reason, to keep the thing running).

So really the worst thing about the camera is when it's sitting in the case. You feel like you should be shooting 24/7.

5. Because it's like owning an Arri 535 in the digital world (okay, the comparison might not really fit, but hopefully you get my point). And digital is the future. And the future is now. (And motion picture is finally beginning to catch up to what's happened in the still photography world).
 
Thank you everyone who responded so far with all your comments and advice, positive and negative, cautionary and encouraging. I really really appreciate this forum.

For me personally and for our business, it makes the most sense to own, thats why we invested in the HPX. But I do want to go further now. We got a very sweet HPX package last year, set up for cinema style work, and it wasn't cheap(over 30k), but as I've researched putting together a RED package, it's even less cheap... heh heh. It looks like the extra cost will pay off in terms of quality, but I feel the pressure of having to work harder at paying off a more expensive package. I'm not lazy, I just don't want to work harder at getting work than the work itself, if you know what I mean.

This thread has enhanced my perspective somewhat. And I hope it continues.
 
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