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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform?

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Gopher77

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I'm still a bit confused about the adobe workflow, which isn't unusual for me. Does Cineform 4k work with R3D files right now? Also I think I read Jim said they're rewriting Redcine from the ground up and plan to release it in June. Can you offer any prediction David on how long it'll take for Cineform to release a Red version of cineform?
 
Gopher77, regarding general workflow, CineForm converts all camera source formats (HDV, AVCHD, P2, Raw, uncompressed, etc) into a (CineForm) compressed digital intermediate format. You could say we "normalize" all formats into a CineForm format while maintaining the source visual fidelity and also the source chroma format. The latter comment means CineForm has 10-bit 4:2:2, 12-bit 4:4:4(:4) and 12-bit Raw formats depending on the source camera. We then support these formats through the post workflow in various editing applications. We're best integrated into Premiere Pro on Windows because Adobe offers an SDK which allows CineForm to literally replace the video processing engine inside Premiere Pro with our own. Apple does not offer such an SDK, so we have to do more work outside FCP in order to compensate.

Regarding Red, our strategy for supporting R3D is the same, and earlier discussions (January) showed we offered compatibility with Build 13 for a couple days. We agreed with Red to withhold our software until their SDK becomes available. I think Jim announced PC support will be available in June which we hope also means June is when CineForm will be able to offer a workflow for Red. But as has been stated clearly, Build 16 in the camera means the bitstream (file) formats will change, and we expect the SDK will be able to help with the changes.
 
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OK, got a few more questions;

Which does cineform work better in Adobe a Mac or PC?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding things correctly, with Cinefore can I edit 4k in realtime? I keep getting told that you can't only 2k, so you have to offline then conform from an EDL.

How does Color finese fit in the Adobe/Cineform workload?
 
Gopher77 said:
OK, got a few more questions;

Which does cineform work better in Adobe a Mac or PC?
Click to expand...
Prospect 4K works best in PPro on Windows. Adobe provides an SDK on both Windows and Mac, but CineForm's RT engine has not been ported to PPro on Mac yet. CineForm files work fine in PPro/Mac but without the same performance our RT engine enables on Windows.

Gopher77 said:
Just want to make sure I'm understanding things correctly, with Cinefore can I edit 4k in realtime? I keep getting told that you can't only 2k, so you have to offline then conform from an EDL.
Click to expand...
Yes, you can edit 4K in real time - multiple stream actually, including RT color correction, transitions, titles, and more. Also CineForm RAW offers RT 3D LUT processing as part of our Active Metadata architecture.

Gopher77 said:
How does Color finese fit in the Adobe/Cineform workload?
Click to expand...
CineForm files are fully compatible with Color Finesse. In fact we've optimized pixel formats with Synthetic Aperture to ensure 32-bit floating-point compatibility. We don't accelerate Color Finesse as we do PPro, but Color Finesse performance will be as it always is.
 
David,
I was just at Red, and was told the SDK would be available in about 6 months.
And I have a feeling the PC support may be in the way of an Avid workflow....I hope I'm wrong because the cineform workflow is the best I've seen.
 
6 months and Avid only? That would be tragic!

In the meantime, I keep telling my clients they have to make a choice. They can have me + Sony Z1U, and I can handle post... or, they can have me + Red, and take their chances with another post house.

Gosh, why don't I just give in a buy a Mac?

-Thor
 
Na, I wouldn't buy the mac, the only thing you gain is editing of the proxy's.

The guy demoing the Final Cut workflow.....Flowmaster.......showed all the in's and out's bringing Redcode into Final Cut.....but that is to more or less just create an EDL....which they suggested finishing in Scratch. In fact he said he would not recommend finishing it in Mac because of how Mac switches from gamma 1.8 to 2.2 without warning.

The broadcast workflow using ProRes is good though, and fully self contained within the Mac apps.


It was a very good demo, and showed a working solution.

But if you go Mac, and want to finish in it, Color is only 2k.....and there is no immediate plans for 4k.

With cineform (if it was allowed) can edit the 4k raw file....scaled....but it is the RAW file....no EDL`s neccessary. Finishing could be done in various tools...color finesse ect at full bit depth 4k.

I`m thinking for the immediate time:
Red Cine debayer.....first light ect
Export TIFF or EXR (RedCine cineform export is not working)
Convert through cineform into cineform intermediate(not RAW anymore)

Edit my 4k files at realtime speed....No conform required

You just lose having Raw on the timeline....which will eventually come when RED releases the SDK

Red is working hard on there own workflow....and I think there ultimate goal is the same,native R3D raw file in the timeline
 
mdharrington said:
Na, I wouldn't buy the mac, the only thing you gain is editing of the proxy's.

The guy demoing the Final Cut workflow.....Flowmaster.......showed all the in's and out's bringing Redcode into Final Cut.....but that is to more or less just create an EDL....which they suggested finishing in Scratch. In fact he said he would not recommend finishing it in Mac because of how Mac switches from gamma 1.8 to 2.2 without warning.

The broadcast workflow using ProRes is good though, and fully self contained within the Mac apps.


It was a very good demo, and showed a working solution.

But if you go Mac, and want to finish in it, Color is only 2k.....and there is no immediate plans for 4k.

With cineform (if it was allowed) can edit the 4k raw file....scaled....but it is the RAW file....no EDL`s neccessary. Finishing could be done in various tools...color finesse ect at full bit depth 4k.

I`m thinking for the immediate time:
Red Cine debayer.....first light ect
Export TIFF or EXR (RedCine cineform export is not working)
Convert through cineform into cineform intermediate(not RAW anymore)

Edit my 4k files at realtime speed....No conform required

You just lose having Raw on the timeline....which will eventually come when RED releases the SDK

Red is working hard on there own workflow....and I think there ultimate goal is the same,native R3D raw file in the timeline
Click to expand...

.R3D files directly from the timeline... that sounds great. But doesn't Cineform already have a realtime 4k RAW workflow in Premiere Pro? Sounds like us PC guys should just convert our .R3D files to Cineform 4k RAW when Cineform is allowed to support Red.

Don't you think?

-Thor
 
I totally agree....
cineform had that at there booth
Red footage in RAW on CS3

converted of course into cineform raw.

But for the time being we'll have to make do with another workflow.
 
mdharrington said:
I totally agree....
cineform had that at there booth
Red footage in RAW on CS3

converted of course into cineform raw.

But for the time being we'll have to make do with another workflow.
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to when time being is time now. :-) Go Cineform!

-Thor
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around 6 months.

This is extremely dissappointing for a lot of people.

In the past I would comment on these sorts of things, but now.. I dunno.

Even in RED offered Adobe support in June, I would find it very unpleasent that other choices would be locked out for an additional 4 or 5 months.

Big time ouch.

Jay
 
mdharrington said:
David,
I was just at Red, and was told the SDK would be available in about 6 months.
And I have a feeling the PC support may be in the way of an Avid workflow....I hope I'm wrong because the cineform workflow is the best I've seen.
Click to expand...

That cant be right.
Jim Jannard said multiple times that they wanted to have the open format this April.
Can someone from red comment on this?
 
Thor Wixom said:
Gosh, why don't I just give in a buy a Mac?

-Thor
Click to expand...

You cant finish your RED footage at its masterquality on OSX, you need windows for this right now.
 
laguun said:
You cant finish your RED footage at its masterquality on OSX, you need windows for this right now.
Click to expand...
or linux

BUT...a $2500 MBPro is still the best accessory you can add to your package. We are a mostly PC facility and the MBPro is the best thing we did for our Red. We mostly use it on set to check footage and if the commercial is complex we edit on set as well.

It is our primary offline tool back at the studio for all our Red projects.
I understand this is a PC thread, but as I said we were all PC prior to the Red, and are now very pleased we added the Mac OS to support our workflow.

And btw...in the past 6 months of use the MBPro has paid for itself several times over.
 
Your right, having the macbook pro would have a lot of advantages...

But i would still edit and finish in pc....unless it was strictly for broadcast....then Final Cut is the way to go.....for now.

As far as the 6 month SDK....that's what we were told

They said "within 10 months there will be many workflows by third parties"
Meaning 6 months for SDK.....4 months for developement.

So if I am wrong don't bite my head off....but this is what I heard from Red employees
 
From the position of an outsider, I completely sympathize with RED not wanting to have loose-cannons in the post-mix at what is still a sensitive moment in the broader acceptance of this image making revolution.

But, from my understanding, the CineForm folk and their products hardly qualify as loose cannons with their impressively solid track record and a very impressive and demonstrated RED/CS3 workflow (among others) all but ready to go. Seems like a perfect win/win arrangement for all parties; this is going to make everyone look good. What’s not to like?

I remain ever hopeful.
 
digitalfx said:
Its the best $2500 accessory you can buy for your Red.
Click to expand...

Greg,

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not going to buy a Mac.

I'm going to hold out for the Cineform solution.

-Thor
 
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