BEST WAY TO MONITOR RED 2K ProRes FOOTAGE

[kamil]

Okay so I'm using FCP 6.0.3 plug in for ProRes 2K Redcode transfer and I end up with 2048x1024 2:1 ratio as shot with the field. What is the most cost effective way of monitoring this and doing color grading that's under $8,000. Here are some options I have thought of so far.

1. Kona 3 with a JVC 24 inch monitor and let the Kona crop the 2K footage to fit the 1920x1080 monitor.

2. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with Dual link and their 2K HD Link system with a 30 inch Cinema Display.

3. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with Dual link and their 2K HD Link system with a 30 inch Cinema Display and then run a CRT out also for color accuracy (if this is possible).

4. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with a JVC 24 inch monitor and hope that the BM card can crop or resize the 2K footage to fit the 1920x1080 monitor.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ben Holmes]

Okay so I'm using FCP 6.0.3 plug in for ProRes 2K Redcode transfer and I end up with 2048x1024 2:1 ratio as shot with the field. What is the most cost effective way of monitoring this and doing color grading that's under $8,000. Here are some options I have thought of so far.

1. Kona 3 with a JVC 24 inch monitor and let the Kona crop the 2K footage to fit the 1920x1080 monitor.

2. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with Dual link and their 2K HD Link system with a 30 inch Cinema Display.

3. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with Dual link and their 2K HD Link system with a 30 inch Cinema Display and then run a CRT out also for color accuracy (if this is possible).

4. New BM Decklink HD Extreme with a JVC 24 inch monitor and hope that the BM card can crop or resize the 2K footage to fit the 1920x1080 monitor.

Any thoughts?

I use a Blackmagic Multibridge Pro with the JVC 24" Monitor (the HD-SDI version). Using 2k 2:1 files generated from 4K 2:1 footage the BM MBP just letterboxes onto the monitor, giving excellent monitoring for grading. without spending the extra on an e-Cinema or Cine-Tal monitor this is an excellent setup.

I understand the Kona software updates will support 2K playback and may scale if you require 1080p playback, but I haven't looked into this fully yet. I use a number of systems with Kona 3's installed, and they're excellent cards, with great RED support. It's just twice the price of the BM option.

Ben

 

[kamil]

I use a Blackmagic Multibridge Pro with the JVC 24" Monitor (the HD-SDI version). Using 2k 2:1 files generated from 4K 2:1 footage the BM MBP just letterboxes onto the monitor, giving excellent monitoring for grading. without spending the extra on an e-Cinema or Cine-Tal monitor this is an excellent setup.

I understand the Kona software updates will support 2K playback and may scale if you require 1080p playback, but I haven't looked into this fully yet. I use a number of systems with Kona 3's installed, and they're excellent cards, with great RED support. It's just twice the price of the BM option.

Ben

Thanks Ben. Thanks awesome that is letterboxes it and doesn't crop any of the image. The Blackmagic Multibridge Pro came out at NAB '07 and it was the first Blackmagic product to support 2K? Now the new BM HD Extreme card should be able to give me the same results as your Multibridge Pro with the HD-SDI JVC 24 inch monitor, correct? Since both cards support 2K and are 3GBbps.

I would love to get a Kona 3 but it's twice the amount and I have no desire to hook up any decks to capture or output, I just want to monitor 2K footage from RED and I think BM HD Extreme is the way to go.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

If this is true, the HD EXTREME CARD might be good for me, too.. Since I'd like to have two computer monitors for edit, and a another pro monitor for playback viewing.

 

[kamil]

I use a Blackmagic Multibridge Pro with the JVC 24" Monitor (the HD-SDI version). Using 2k 2:1 files generated from 4K 2:1 footage the BM MBP just letterboxes onto the monitor, giving excellent monitoring for grading.
Ben

I also wanted to ask you if you've had any issues with your Multibrige Pro, I hear the only negative side to BM is their support and if something goes wrong you're all alone to fix the issue. How has your experience been using your product for monitoring 2K?

 

[George A.]

Then you don't need the Multibridge Pro option for working in 2K anymore? What's the difference between the Multibridge and the new HD EXTREME CARD?

 

[timecodemultimedia]

I am not completely sure, but it seems like you want to grade 2K footage.
Are you planning on grading in 2K for 2K output or 2K for HD output?

If you are planning on finishing in 2K, a JVC monitor it's not what you need. To grade 2K footage you need a monitor capable of dual-link SDI with 4:4:4 support and JVC don't make them.

At that level of grading the only kind monitor capable of reproducing 2K images for "proper" color grading ranges in the $25,000 to $40,000. Pretty much any monitor priced below that price range has no chance to grade 2K.

It's expensive but unfortunately that is the ONLY professional way.

 

[kamil]

Then you don't need the Multibridge Pro option for working in 2K anymore? What's the difference between the Multibridge and the new HD EXTREME CARD?

Multibridge is designed to be attached to rack and features 10 audio channels. Otherwise, the HD Extreme can do pretty much everything that Multibridge can do, 2K, 4:4:4 RGB, HDMI in/out, and all analog in/out. Just remember that the Multibridge came out a year ago and the HD Extreme has been out for a few weeks. In fact B&H in NY doesn't even have it in stock yet.

 

[kamil]

I am not completely sure, but it seems like you want to grade 2K footage.
Are you planning on grading in 2K for 2K output or 2K for HD output?

If you are planning on finishing in 2K, a JVC monitor it's not what you need. To grade 2K footage you need a monitor capable of dual-link SDI with 4:4:4 support and JVC don't make them.

At that level of grading the only kind monitor capable of reproducing 2K images for "proper" color grading ranges in the $25,000 to $40,000. Pretty much any monitor priced below that price range has no chance to grade 2K.

It's expensive but unfortunately that is the ONLY professional way.

I completely agree with you TCmultimedia. The JVC can not do 4:4:4 and do 2K grading. I see that there are at least 3 kinds of people on here.

1. The ones with very little budget and they will end up doing their color work on a Dell or Cinema display or maybe an Intensity HDMI with a HDMI plasma or LCD.

2. The ones who will buy a Kona or BM card with HD-SDI and buy a HDSDI monitor for under $4000, like a Luma or the JVC 24 inch. (That's my budget)

3. The ones who can afford a $25,000+ Dual link HDSDI 4:4:4 monitor.

Maybe I'm still naive in this but if I can buy a HD Extreme card for $1,000 with 2K and 3Gbps HDSDI and a JVC 24 inch for $3500. I can then color grade 2K letterboxed on the JVC 24 incher in 4:2:2. For me this is far more monetarily sound than spending 5 to 10 times more just for 4:4:4.

But with the HD Extreme having 2K 3Gbps built in, I can in the future, sell of the JVC 24 inch and pick up a true 2K LCD with 3Gbps inputs made by RED or whoever when the prices drop. I can almost guarantee that Apple and Red are in bed together over FCS3 and I have no doubt we will see native 4:4:4 RGB 2K or maybe 4K editing in FCP 7. This will change the landscape considerably.

 

[timecodemultimedia]

Maybe I'm still naive in this but if I can buy a HD Extreme card for $1,000 with 2K and 3Gbps HDSDI and a JVC 24 inch for $3500. I can then color grade 2K letterboxed on the JVC 24 incher in 4:2:2. For me this is far more monetarily sound than spending 5 to 10 times more just for 4:4:4.

Then why not downconvert the R3D files to HD 10bit 4:2:2 and color grade under that environment in true 10bit format and color space? It will make your budget a lot smaller and your work a lot more accurate. To color correct in 2K (even with video card cropping) you need an extremely fast disk array. 2K eats up 360MB per second of data rate. That is at the very least 2 old Apple Xserve Raids raided as 1 unit. Right there (at used prices) you are looking at $15,000 on hard drives alone to grade 2K.

But with the HD Extreme having 2K 3Gbps built in, I can in the future, sell of the JVC 24 inch and pick up a true 2K LCD with 3Gbps inputs made by RED or whoever when the prices drop. I can almost guarantee that Apple and Red are in bed together over FCS3 and I have no doubt we will see native 4:4:4 RGB 2K or maybe 4K editing in FCP 7. This will change the landscape considerably.

Unless Apple and RED come up with a magic solution in 12 months 2K grading and output demands a lot of horse power on your hard drives alone. And looking at non-Sony makers of 4:4:4 capable monitors (E-Cinema, Cine-Tal, etc, etc) prices on those kind of monitors have been stable for the last 15 years and I doubt they'll ever come down in price. I surely hope that dream comes through, 'cause just like anyone else, equipment costs kill me every year.

 

[kamil]

Then why not downconvert the R3D files to HD 10bit 4:2:2 and color grade under that environment in true 10bit format and color space? It will make your budget a lot smaller and your work a lot more accurate. To color correct in 2K (even with video card cropping) you need an extremely fast disk array. 2K eats up 360MB per second of data rate. That is at the very least 2 old Apple Xserve Raids raided as 1 unit. Right there (at used prices) you are looking at $15,000 on hard drives alone to grade 2K.

Unless Apple and RED come up with a magic solution in 12 months 2K grading and output demands a lot of horse power on your hard drives alone.

Very good point, right now ProRes seems like a great offline format to cut with and then online to uncompressed HD 10 bit 4:2:2. ProRes is only 25MBps, which is easy for a single drive to handle. Now the drive array is getting cheaper and cheaper. You can load in 4 SATA 1TB drives in a Mac Pro, boot of a 5th drive in the optical day and read and write at 400MBps with no sweat. Then just simply have another 4 drive RAID as a backup clone. Mind you 2K uncompressed at 23.98 is much less than 360MBps, HD 60i uncompressed is 237MBps, so the need for an Xserve RAID isn't always there.

Apple bought Final Touch, a $25,000 program, down to a $1,300 suite and RED is basically revolutionizing things with their cameras not to mention their prices. If they're selling 3K for 3K why wouldn't they be able to bring the cost of monitoring down as well. Again people out there have different budgets, if I had $50,000 to put into a post system I of course wouldn't have to do barebones solutions to make things work. I'm unfortunately right now stuck in the $5,000 to spend on cards and monitors so I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck and the BM Decklink HD Extreme and the JVC 24 inch seem to be like the best for around $5,000 right now.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

you are looking at $15,000 on hard drives alone

what?

I'd use a dedicated DAS Array for grading
MediaVault 5116
€ 4.000 or $6.180
HDD WDRE2 500GB (Enterprise edition)
€ 101,372 cad. 16 HDD=€ 1.600 or $2.472

 

[timecodemultimedia]

what?I'd use a dedicated DAS Array for grading MediaVault 5116 € 4.000 or $6.180 HDD WDRE2 500GB (Enterprise edition) € 101,372 cad. 16 HDD=€ 1.600 or $2.472

Sure, if you want to put up with the HDs direct connection and fan noise.
I don't. Fibre and as far away as possible....

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

If the problem is the noise the MediaVault 5116 or 5108 can be connected to a 7mt cable (quite far) anyway there are many solutions for soundproof rack arrays.

probably the most known is the
http://www.xrackpro.com/

if you don't need shared access to the files in the storage array
a DAS is the best solution for pure performance in data streaming (read and write)

so if you need shared access go with a 4Gb fiber SAN but if you don't go with a 20Gb DAS like the MediaVault 5116.

Actually Ciprico is working to make the MediaVault 5100 series to serve 2 worksations. Interesting!