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Request for Great Built-in Audio

Noah Kadner

Noah Kadner

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I know RED as a company is rightfully focused on the image and delivering the best possible picture. But as movie makers we have an obligation to produce excellent audio as well. So how about on the Scarlet: decent low noise mini-XLR audio connectors, real built-in hardware pan pots, flexible audio monitoring feedback on the viewfinder, customizable audio sampling rate and format options and a really sweet on-board microphone for those just-in-case moments. There are some beautiful outboard recorders to take inspiration from, such as:

http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/

and

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/702t.htm

and even

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916

Audio is something that's less recognized as important by shooters but nothing screams out amateur on a finished project like poorly recorded sound. Perhaps RED can bring someone on board who really knows their audio game to match all the experts they have in picture, workflow, codecs, hardware, sensors, EVFs and more. Or if you've already got that person- let's hear their plan. :) You've taken the lead in best of class picture, please consider matching it with best in class audio as well. :spidy:

Noah
 
Amen!

(Gunleik - Jazz drummer by education, composer by practice, audiostudio owner for 1,5 decade and filmmaker because it was more fun...)
 
It's real simple. If audio at least as good as DVX/HVX is missing from the camera, I won't buy it and I suspect many other people won't either. Audio is 60% of great image-making.
 
Audio Quality.

Audio Quality.

It's real simple. If audio at least as good as DVX/HVX is missing from the camera, I won't buy it and I suspect many other people won't either. Audio is 60% of great image-making.
Click to expand...

Of course. But the poster was comparing 24 bit standalone recorders with RED audio, that is a much higher bar than DVX/HVX.
 
Stuart English said:
Of course. But the poster was comparing 24 bit standalone recorders with RED audio, that is a much higher bar than DVX/HVX.
Click to expand...

I was not clear - not only just good quality pre-amps and circuits, but useful controls, pots, levels etc. The current design for Red One is a poor match for Scarlet IMO as I often shoot single-system sound and only double-system when absolutely necessary.
 
My hopes are that RED will implement some great audio features as well.

Having to use a recorder and then slate sync in post is such a pain in the arse. Especially for those of us doing much of our own post work.

:bleh:
 
my two cents:
having the possibility to set the levels (even from the menu) and LOCK them would be great and i don't think it would be particularly expensive/difficult.
as soundman, my life would be easier if i could trust that after setting the reference tone from my mixer at -20 in the camera it remains at -20 no matter what happens to the post, always touched by the camera guy.
i wonder why no camera that i work with gives me this possibility..
 
Stuart English said:
Lets keep this discussion to audio. Scarlet is not an interchangeable lens design.
Click to expand...

Unless we want to argue interchangable lenses help "focus" the audio signal....:clown2:

And one more thing - great built in audio is of little use if you can't work with it in post. I'm currently posting commercials shot with Red One and audio requires a Macintosh computer (which bites if you don't have one running FCP in your studio - my old iMac is a dog) and convolutions to get at it.

Scarlet needs to hit the ground running, which means seamless post work-flow including audio.
 
yes please, 24/48khz would compliment the audio part of things.
 
stephenv2 said:
And one more thing - great built in audio is of little use if you can't work with it in post. I'm currently posting commercials shot with Red One and audio requires a Macintosh computer (which bites if you don't have one running FCP in your studio - my old iMac is a dog) and convolutions to get at it.

Scarlet needs to hit the ground running, which means seamless post work-flow including audio.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Though I am a Mac person I strongly agree that the ability to have a more universal audio format available to my brothers across the PC pond would be highly desirable.

I suggest a menu option to record as AIF, WAV or BWF. That would give everyone something to work with natively as they desire. Of course I suspect it will not be recorded separately as we like to keep things interleaved in the camera. Still it would be awesome and considering the RED One puts proxies within the directory along with the .R3D already it wouldn't be inconceivable to store audio as a separate archive within the inevitable mag structure Scarlet would have. Compared to 3K Redcode, 24-bit 96Hkz(or higher) audio is a tiny chunk of bandwidth. There's no excuse to not nail it right out of the box and do it better than everyone else out there- right? :)

Noah
 
Stuart English said:
Lets keep this discussion to audio.
Click to expand...

Stuart-

Kudos to you for taking note of this thread. There's really no downside to putting best of class audio into the mix. It's often neglected by the other camera companies or at the least implemented on a perfunctory level.

Taking the lead on the other half of moviemaking to go with your best of class picture is a relatively easy implementation to make and one I hope you'll help to convince Jim is worth the investment and extra personnel it might require to make it a priority. It only serves to reinforce the raising of the bar for the whole industry RED has already accomplished on the picture side.

Noah
 
24-bit 96Hkz is perfect!
It would make location sound really really good!

I also use my current camera as a location sound recorder for sounddesign when working in post and putting the lowest footageresolution, while recording at highest soundquality would make Scarlet not only the perfect camera for images, it will enable me to use it for sounddesign too.
As long as there's at least two XLR inputs that can give power to a mic.
Although I'll probably use a mixer, there would be good to be able to power a mic directly from camera.
 
You need good preamps and a limiter (pre A/D), adjustable level controls on the body, metering, ... no shortcuts for a decent workable system, & there's no way around it unless you want a Walmart design, or something that is very frustrating to use. The Scarlet design has an opportunity to break ground, let's see if they're up to it.

My 2 cents: Who ever comes up with a Epic type body design [box], yes interchangeable lens, blah blah blah, (all the stuff people have been asking since way back at DVXuser) for around $7,500.00, with a decent codec, They WIN! Game over.

......originally (2003) this was about developing a low cost high quality camera so regular people can make acceptable quality movies, but it's turned into big $ and has gotten away from it's roots...this has gone on forever, I'm getting tired!
 
Its important to have a wide range of attenuation options maybe as much as -30 or -40db in reasonable steps. Many users are at some time going to want to record a concert, music event, club, wedding etc and at times at these type of events and especially clubs, sound levels can approach 130db. The last thing you want is great pictures and totally blown out audio.
 
Ok, Scarlet will be a 3K camera for 3K $.


To get good sound you need three things, regarding hardware:

1. Good\appropriate mic(s).

2. Good pre-amp.

3. Good AD\DA Convertors.

Mics are external, I doubt that RED would include on-board mics, so I'll take that out of the equation. But if they do, we all know how much a good mic costs.

The truth is, a single good pre-amp would cost maybe half the price of the camera itself.

Scarlet will be 3K $. RED confirmed 2 channels of audio.

You do the math.

The same goes with AD\DA Convertors. These things are NOT cheap.

16bit\48 kHz is enough, in terms of bits and herz-es. The preamps and AD\DA are what's crucial.

So, if the Scarlet's audio circuit performs like an HVX, that would be SUPERB for this price range. For ENG\Event, that's more than enough.

For indie filmmaking you'll be recording sound on an external device anyway.

With Scarlet priced at 3K $, top-quality on-board audio is wishful thinking.

Give us good compatibility with external recorders and also: interchangeable lenses :biggrin:.

Scarlet's primary task is the image.

...

Just my 3K ($).

:)
 
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