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HMI lights and the RED

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

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Hi all. . .

I need some opinions. My young (but very talented) DP is quite adament that we "need" HMI lighting and Kino-flos for our upcoming indie feature. I have several very nice Arri quartz fresnels and softboxes and I'd rather use those, since they are already here and paid for.

The DP insists that HMIs and Kinos will make the film look "so much better" than the quartz lights. I don't see how this can be true, but I'm looking for your professional insights to settle the matter.

Obviously, the DP will follow my decision, but I do want to make sure that I am making the correct decision:

Here is what he wants:

2 HMI 1200s
4x4 bank of Kinoglobe
2x2 bank of Kinoglobe

Here is what I have (all Arri)

Two 1K quartz fresnels
1 1K quartz open face with softbox
1 650 quartz fresnel with softbox
3 300 quartz fresnels
2 150 quartz fresnels
1 2K Arri Softlite
1 1K Arri Softlite

We are primarily lighting interiors.

So, gentlemen. . . what do you think?

Thanks so much.

Stephen
 
You know, it depends on what you want the image to look like, and what the reality of the set/shooting conditions is.

This isn't a simple yes or no question.

He might be scared of the Red's noise when shooting under tungsten, which is a valid concern, but on the other hand, that tungsten package is much more diverse. You can probably do more with that package, but then again, I don't know what the sets look like, what type of lighting he wants, etc... hard to judge without knowing that sort of thing.
 
Yes on one 1200 HMI PAR and if you can afford it either another PAR or a 1200 HMI Fresnel. No on the Kino's since you have the Arri softlights already.

I would even suggest buying these HMI's to complete your lighting package. I love mine and use them all the time along with all of my tungsten lights.

Good shooting.
 
Daylight Balanced Sensor

Daylight Balanced Sensor

The Red One has a daylight balanced sensor and because of this or for other reasons it is prone to blue channel noise when you rebalance tungsten to daylight in post. Your DP has reasons to use daylight balanced HMI's beyond this issue. Shooting in overcast you need daylight fill, shooting inside during the day using light from windows you need HMI's. And there are many more situations where HMI's are so much more valuable than quartz. Of course if you are balancing to candles or rooms totally sheilded from daylight or at night and lit with a practicals you have to live with then quartz lights are the way to go. But given the nature of the Red One sensor and the majority of situations where HMI's are more appropriate I think you should trust your DP. And since it sounds like your DP might have been a little conservative on his real lighting needs so as not to scare you, I think you should give him at least 5 HMI's for host package. HMI's are more finnicy than quartz and even new ones can have as high as a 15 percent won't strike rate. Also if you are planning on lighting a whole room you will probably bounce 2 into a 4x4 foamcore for the key, bounce another for fill and need another for back light. That leaves one for back up. And for even a micro feature, that is cutting it close. If you search this site you will find much about the blue channel noise and from my own personal shooting experience I will only shoot tungsten with Red One as a matter of las resort. One more thing . . . Expsure. You will here suggestions to use 320. My cleanest most low noise shots have been rated at 160. I strongly recommend your DP do tests that follow out the post chain to determine the results of various ISO's. Good luck.
 
I appreciate these opinions and welcome more. Here is another question: Is there a visible difference between an HMI with a magnetic ballast and one with an electronic ballast?

Thanks very much.

Stephen
 
You might run some tests before hand using CTB gel on the tungstens and see what how it turns out. Full CTB will take your candlelight down to 33% transmission so you'd need to run much larger lamps, or more of them, then HMIs. If you have the budget rent the HMIs for daylight balance.

Kinos are very nice for CU but I think the softboxes can deliver the same, play with it and see.

Nothing can resolve questions better than running tests and seeing the actual results.
 
Here's my take: if you're hiring a skilled professional, give him the tools he needs to do the job.

If you insist on him working with one (or two) hands tied behind his back, you've got no right to complain when the project doesn't turn out its best.

If he knows what he's doing, and he's telling you he needs those fixtures, you should get him those fixtures.

If he doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't actually need those fixtures, you shouldn't hire him. You should hire someone who knows what he's doing. Your ideal situation would be to hire someone who says that what you have is all he needs.
 
Barry Green said:
Here's my take: if you're hiring a skilled professional, give him the tools he needs to do the job.

If you insist on him working with one (or two) hands tied behind his back, you've got no right to complain when the project doesn't turn out its best.

If he knows what he's doing, and he's telling you he needs those fixtures, you should get him those fixtures.

If he doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't actually need those fixtures, you shouldn't hire him. You should hire someone who knows what he's doing. Your ideal situation would be to hire someone who says that what you have is all he needs.
Click to expand...

That seems obvious but it's a very intelligent comment. Ask HIM why he feels he needs those fixtures, and trust HIM to be honest.

It also changes according to the style of the cinematographer. I think his kit is very reasonable and I'd be much more confortable shooting with that kit than with the kit you seem to have, but I know some cinematographers that would prefer your kit's diversity and number of sources over his, with less but versatile sources.
 
Here's a simple question no one has asked: how many shots are near windows during the day? If you are shooting this away from any influences of the sun (i.e. in basements, attics, closed off rooms, etc.) then you can get away with only what you have (though Kinos are convenient as heck). But, if you intend to shoot during the day, near the influence of windows, then yes, buy them.

Now you know, depending on how savvy you are, this doesn't have to be expensive. I came to the same realization as your DP but without that much money, so I did research and turned to eBay.

I bought an LTM 2500w HMI Par with magnetic ballast for only $1350 and two bulbs at $275 apiece. I then created my own dryer drop to be able to run this from house power. $2k total for a 2500w HMI! I used it all this last weekend, works awesome.

Then for Kinos, I bought a 2-bank and a 4-bank "Chino" (Kino-flo knockoff made in China) that takes the 55w biax tubes. They look pro, all black with yokes, barndoors, etc. Then I bought KinoFlo brand tubes in daylight and tungsten. Are they as good mechanically as Kinos? Hell no! But they put out the same exact light, no flickering and no audio hum. Saved me a shitload of money.

So there, Kinos and HMI and spare bulbs for $3k total.
 
HMI's are much more efficient then quartz fixtures... I rarely light with anything tungsten anymore - The funny thing is the more I use them the bigger and bigger they get. Suddenly 4K PARS aren't even cutting it. .. The equivalent tungsten source would be ridiculously huge.

Depends on your locations though
 
I vote for HMI's and Kinos, too. To get the best out of the RED you would have to daylight gel the tungsten lights which makes you loose 2 stops, so suddenly your 1k lights are 250W lights - compare that to the 1200W HMI's which are already more efficient.
 
Gotta ask this question....

Say you've got an indoor scene (no daylight) to light/shoot.
Considering the Red sensor is daylight balanced and under tungsten with no filtering I hear the red channel clips a stop sooner and the blue is noisier.
Do people shoot under daylight lighting and correct whitebalance in post?
Which is more of an argument to buy daylight lighting, if you can afford.

Dave
 
Many people light day interiors by placing a light outside aimed through a window. This would be a waste of time with your 1kW - once you've gelled it with CTB gel to match daylight you'll have very little light to play with compared to a 1.2kW HMI which is naturally daylight and more powerful. Another thing to consider is that an HMI can operate outside even in the rain (don't know if you get much of that in your parts?), whereas a tungsten unit can't.

If I were you I'd definitely hire a 1.2kW HMI and then supplement that with the other tungsten lights you own (you can gel these to daylight and use the soft boxes for fill or ambient or backlight etc). Then you can also use them for night interiors too. Incidentally a lot of people use HMIs for night scenes too to replicate moonlight (if your camera's set to tungsten the HMI appears blue).
 
Typically on a job like this, HMI for the day interiors, tungsten for the night interiors. For day interiors, your d.p. is probably trying to make the best use of the existing amibiant daylight, and to "fight" the windows getting totally blown out. (A 1K with full blue on it? So often, it's like why bother? There's just not enough umpph for the competing daylight.)

Remember, the kinos can be tubed with both tungsten and daylight balanced tubes. On low budget situations, practicals, or homemade lighting devices can fill in if there are just a few small night interiors.

If I was the producer, I would try to get him both a small HMI package and a small tungsten package, unless it's all night or all day.
 
Sorry Stephen,
But you don't really have a lighting kit for an Indie feature without
the HMI's. Gell up your tungsten stuff with full CTB and test. Major light loss.
In daylight balance I'd also add a 2.5 K and or a 4K for window source.
Electronic ballasts needed if shooting offspeed and avoid tungsten balance
as much as possible with RED ONE. An 80 series filter will help a little here.
Mezmo
 
Yeah. . . where did you find these Shawn?

Oh, sorry.

:-)

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
I appreciate these opinions and welcome more. Here is another question: Is there a visible difference between an HMI with a magnetic ballast and one with an electronic ballast?

Thanks very much.

Stephen
Click to expand...

As long as you are shooting 25 FPS (Pal/50HZ territory) or 30 FPS (NTSC/60HZ) the "look" of magnetic or electronic ballasts should be the same.
However, with the Electronic ballast you can shoot off-speed as they give you a "flicker-free" light output. With magnetic ballast you are limited to certain speeds, which are for film-cameras : 16.66-20-33.33-50-100 for 50Hz , and 60 and 120 fps on 60 Hz (plus some other odd numbers). (180 degrees shutter)
However, this might work different for electronic cameras.
These numbers are also depending on the shutter-angles of the camera.

I would always use electronic ballast, nowadays!

Rob
 
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