Tangent Wave

[Lucas Wilson]

http://www.4rfv.co.uk/industrynews.asp?id=74973

List Price announced at US$ 1,595

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Bruce Allen]

So Luki, this begs the obvious - when are you going to announce a reasonably full-featured version of Scratch that matches this kind of pricing?

I'm serious. I'm using up my 1000th post to say this. There's a huge gap right now for a Color competitor, because Color doesn't really work right now.

I'm personally a tad sick of color correcting in After Effects - and plan to get the Wave and move to another system in 2009. It would be nice if yours were within my price bracket!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi Bruce. Just curious here:
What are your main complaints with COLOR?

Cheers!

 

[Robert Frank]

Looking good.

Looking good.

More for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/products_wave.asp

 

[Shawn Nelson]

because Color doesn't really work right now.
www.boacinema.com

Yes it does. Color is awesome! V 1.02 fixed a ton of bugs. Color can handle 2k 10bit DPX Seq today and R3D is coming. I've started using Color and absolutely love it. Combine that with FCP and Crimson for conforming and you have yourself a great solution for 2k offline/online edit/conform/finish.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i think assimilate did think about a 1000 dollar appl.
but who of the potential 1000 dollars buyers would buy scratch 1k,when color can do the same and is included in fcs?


and asfaik there is no real OS support.

the best bang for the buck seems to be speedgrade,because its not crippled on features...

btw. this tangent wave is awesome

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Kaya... Don't you ever sleep

On the other hand, speedgrade. What's your impressions?

 

[Jason Ing]

Because Scratch is modular, when people talk about scratch it can mean several things. So let's be a little more specific about scratch and cc. In scratch, there is something called Scaffolding (?). This is where it's all at, I think. This is where you do your "powerwindows". The cheapest version of Scratch doesn't have this. And I don't think Scratch will offer Scaffolding at a price point that would compete against Color. I guess that's why you're up to 1000 without any results.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Kaya... Don't you ever sleep

On the other hand, speedgrade. What's your impressions?

i learned a lot from a fellow reduser...he is the T1000 regarding this stuff...one day of talking was worth a lot

and i have a little software appl. which gives me a message everytime you are logged in..hehe

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

everybody reacts to the red movement, prices are dropping. but the best bang for the buck items have to be seperated between 1. cool awesome and 2. ah, its cool but crippled...doesnt matter, dont have the money for the big toys...stuff

 

[Jason Ing]

It's posted somewhere else that the wave doesn't work with color now... something about not working with USB. But it will later.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

really?

but i am also curious to see the jazzmaster in action, mark posted about it...and mark finds the coolest real world working items and he seems to test the shit out of it.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

So Luki, this begs the obvious - when are you going to announce a reasonably full-featured version of Scratch that matches this kind of pricing?

I'm serious. I'm using up my 1000th post to say this. There's a huge gap right now for a Color competitor, because Color doesn't really work right now.

I'm personally a tad sick of color correcting in After Effects - and plan to get the Wave and move to another system in 2009. It would be nice if yours were within my price bracket!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce,

I guess the truth of the matter is that we are not a consumer company, and SCRATCH is not a consumer product. The pricing for SCRATCH *is* truly revolutionary for its market. People that are looking at full 2K/4K DI solutions and come to us are astonished at our pricing. (And before anybody starts jumping on my head - I am talking about people doing 4K DI and monitoring on 2K, which is still the vast majority of the market.)

We just announced SCRATCH-CINE at a US$31,995 list price *turnkey.* That is basically a 4K deck for 32K that does realtime video resizing and rescaling, conforming, basic color correction, background data input and organization, etc. When was the last time you purchased an HDCAM-SR for 32K? And that is only HD... : )

Everything has to be put in context...

Color is a great product and it will serve a huge community and a huge client base. We are happy that Color is there serving that market. We are not going to try and sell a full DI color correction system for under $5K. Or for under $10K.

It is not who we are as a company, and not what SCRATCH is as a product.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Bruce Allen]

EDIT: Luki, thanks for the very honest and forthright response!

Hi Bruce. Just curious here:
What are your main complaints with COLOR?

IMHO it's just not on the same level as the high-end stuff in terms of responsiveness, general unreliability, usual rinky-dink Apple habit of advertising features before fixing existing bugs or making the software faster / responsive / more nimble.

After Effects can TOTALLY compete quality-wise with anything out there. What it's missing is easy workflow, speed and responsiveness.

To justify the investment of time in getting good at a new software package, it needs to be a major leap better - eg really competitive with the high-end. At the moment, Color is not, IN MY OPINION.

But in late 2009, with a 2nd version, plus a new generation of computer gfx cards, cpus, hard drives, etc, Color very well may be there.

Please bear in mind I'm weird though - for example, I find FCP to be laggy, bloated, unreliable and just frustrating to work with. I think it's because I used to write computer programs. I can't see why Apple can't make a responsive GUI on today's computers - if I could do it on a 0.016ghz PC with no graphics acceleration.

Personally, I think that if Apple made everything snappy, then people wouldn't feel the need to upgrade computers when they start doing complex projects. So Apple designs their software to look good in demos and if it starts to slow down and suck in big projects, THAT'S A GOOD THING TO THEM. And bad for us!

For example, the trailer company I work for still uses many G4s running Media Composer and OS9 - they're responsive, reliable - and very bad business for Apple!

In computer science, there is a basic, basic concept that every programmer is taught: it's easy to write a computer program that solves a simple problem in 1/1000th of a second. The trick is figuring out how to solve a complex problem in 1 seconds, not 10.

To use O notation, good coders will try to write algorithms that are O or better O(sqrt) etc. Bad / lazy / dishonest ones will write O(n^2) algorithms when they don't need to.

FCP and most Apple software seems to me to be filled with O(n^2) or worse kind of crap.

People put up with slow bloatware because they think "it's okay, I've got a ton of edits in my sequence". What they don't understand is that interaction should be NEAR-INSTANT as long as you're under something like 1 million edits or so...

Most well-optimized code is designed especially to deal with complex problems. Apple prioritizes the other way around - their stuff looks great in simple demos but often falls apart when you get complex.

This is a simplistic argument from a CS point of view, just looking at a tiny facet of development in isolation. Of course there are lots of places where good coders should use less efficient algorithims. It's just that I get the feeling that most Apple software is a total rats-nest inside.

Just my 2c. I like Scratch because it is very responsive and looks designed to conform large projects.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i love to hear hacker talk....bruce i dont know what you are talking, but it reflects feelings i get using this stuff.


btw---i love that red is a consumer product....i will shoot 4k for 17500 and next year 3k for 3000 dollar, and i forget to name the 1000 dollar consumer 4k redray playback toy.......jim is great in doing consumer products.

 

[Kevin Wild]

Luki, with all due respect, I keep hearing you say "consider it like a deck." But at the end of a day, a deck has a tape that you master to and send off to a network/client. It seems this analogy breaks down a bit...yes, it is real time playback, but it is not a deck.

I think people are griping a bit much about ScratchCINE. $30k is not THAT much for a solution like this when it includes the computer. I would personally love it if you did release a software-only version that could be used on a Mac via basecamp (~around $20k...that's when I would consider it). We are an all Mac shop and I don't intend on throwing a wrench into the gears to get a PC anytime soon.

Just my $.02...thanks.

Kevin

 

[Bruce Allen]

i love to hear hacker talk....bruce i dont know what you are talking, but it reflects feelings i get using this stuff.

Haha, maybe I need a "sorry for my english" disclaimer...

So, Luki, let's say I do battle through finishing something low-budget with the Wave and Color - and it turns out well, gets a good response, etc - and as a result suddenly I get the opportunity to get it finished at Plastercity or some other super-nice Scratch vendor for a theatrical presentation...

There isn't some kind of Automatic Duck - style option where I can get my basic color looks from Color, power windows, mattes, etc, into the Scratch session?

I've been reading about CDL files, etc, but are they really specific enough to be useful?

I understand it'd probably just be better to either:
a) strike up a relationship with a generous post-house early on (eg beg them to initially grade your project on Scratch BEFORE it's had success)

or

b) finish in Color all the way (even if the last step of the process is taking your whole Color project to somewhere with a fancy DI room to tweak the overall grade to perfection...)

Just planning for the future... anything I am missing?

Sorry, this is OT. Back to the Wave, so this is going to be a cool thing for assistants' stations or something?

Is it really close to the Tangent Devices CP-200 range?

I mean, if you're buying an expensive Scratch setup, why would you want a $1500 panel? Surely you'd want to get the CP-200 stuff because that'd allow you to work faster, bill clients more and pay off your Scratch sooner?

Or are you going to use it to make some kind of SpeedGrade OnSet competitor?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Luki, with all due respect, I keep hearing you say "consider it like a deck." But at the end of a day, a deck has a tape that you master to and send off to a network/client. It seems this analogy breaks down a bit...yes, it is real time playback, but it is not a deck.

I think people are griping a bit much about ScratchCINE. $30k is not THAT much for a solution like this when it includes the computer. I would personally love it if you did release a software-only version that could be used on a Mac via basecamp (~around $20k...that's when I would consider it). We are an all Mac shop and I don't intend on throwing a wrench into the gears to get a PC anytime soon.

Just my $.02...thanks.

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

Thanks for the feedback...

Admittedly - it is not a perfect analogy. But it's the closest thing that makes sense. A deck does have a tape that you master to... but a deck also does not conform, color correct, pan/scan, etc.

In all seriousness, what is so hard about putting a WindowsPC into an all-Mac environment? I understand the virus issues. So don't connect it to the outside world. But other than that, why is it so difficult? Since SCRATCH is a full-screen application, it would look exactly the same on OSX as it would on a PC. So why does it matter?

Not trying to start a flame war - just asking... : )

Lucas

 

[Gunleik Groven]

But Scratch Cine does also not CC... If I'm not misinformed.

And decks, I've always tried to avoid them.

The real interisting product (to me) is Scratch itself, and I haven't had time to check it out yet, so that's my loss.

Bruce. I see your points.
Just curious because many of the bigger broadcasters/film out house (yup, this is really a small country...) have thrown out DaVincis and Pablos (or whatever...) for Color the last year, and they do realtime 2k dpx for filmouts or TV series with it. Very contrary - trendwise - to what I hear and read all over the boards.

Still, Scratch has sold 2 suites to Norway so far, and I guess more comes in... The easy answer to "Why pay XX$ for something you can have for X$" is I guess

a. It's nothing like the same thing
b. It's really that much better...

I'll get educated

Back on topic:
I thought Color users were the core market for wave?

Gunleik

 

[Dylan Reeve]

IMHO it's just not on the same level as the high-end stuff in terms of responsiveness, general unreliability, usual rinky-dink Apple habit of advertising features before fixing existing bugs or making the software faster / responsive / more nimble.

Color is great, and also hugely frustrating in many ways. It's like a 'so close yet so far thing'.

A few things that bug me, in no particular order:

• Flakey conform ability - Conforming an EDL against DPX, if it doesn't work it just doesn't work. No ability to see the problem or attempt to correct it. Also, no support for dissolves or anothing like that - so to render any basic transitions it needs to go back to an NLE.
• Sequence time limitation - The informed users say "don't take more than 20 minutes into Color" - I figured that was a round-about number, took 23 minutes in and ended up losing a day's work when the project became corrupted when I opened it again.
• Curves - I love my curves, it's what I use mostly in Avid correction, but in Color it only exists in the Primaries, no curves in Secondaries.
• Integration - This is my biggest gripe. Apple seems to be claiming that Color is an integrated tool, but it is far from it. The integration is nothing more than a 'Send To' really.

Please bear in mind I'm weird though - for example, I find FCP to be laggy, bloated, unreliable and just frustrating to work with. I think it's because I used to write computer programs. I can't see why Apple can't make a responsive GUI on today's computers - if I could do it on a 0.016ghz PC with no graphics acceleration.

It's not just me! Thank god. I sometimes wonder if the Mac-addicts are actually somehow entirely blind to spinning beachballs. At times doing something a simple as clicking on a combobox, or moving to another point in the timeline can have the beachball spinning for 30 seconds or so.

For example, the trailer company I work for still uses many G4s running Media Composer and OS9 - they're responsive, reliable - and very bad business for Apple!

A drama series I worked on about a year ago was cut entirely on two practically ancient G3 macs running Media Composer v7 or something, they never even slowed down.

People put up with slow bloatware because they think "it's okay, I've got a ton of edits in my sequence". What they don't understand is that interaction should be NEAR-INSTANT as long as you're under something like 1 million edits or so...

I certainly do notice FCP suffer more as the complexity of the sequence increases, this hasn't been my experience with Avid.

We are an all Mac shop and I don't intend on throwing a wrench into the gears to get a PC anytime soon.

I felt exactly the same about throwing a Mac into the mix at work. In reality there's no problem with interoperability however.

Just curious because many of the bigger broadcasters/film out house (yup, this is really a small country...) have thrown out DaVincis and Pablos (or whatever...) for Color the last year, and they do realtime 2k dpx for filmouts or TV series with it. Very contrary - trendwise - to what I hear and read all over the boards.

That's certainly not the case in NZ, I think very few people use Color any any serious capacity (and certainly not in preference to any more 'mature' system). And 'realtime 2k dpx' out? In my experience Color isn't realtime anything, it can't even do playout, it's reliant for FCP for video I/O operations really.

No doubt Color is very impressive for the price (free, or whatever), but it's no competition in serious DI workflow for SCRATCH or other hardcore DI systems.

Back on topic:
I thought Color users were the core market for wave?

Given the price point, I think they will be. Tangent say they will have support for Color - I don't know if that means an update for Color, or some sort of driver that will interface with Color.