Successes or failures with B4 Mount

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

Spot on! I fully underline your summary. REDone can be very versatile, yet B4 2/3 is not its sweetest spot... If one seeks a cam for exclusive HD ENG zoom usage, there are better suited cams that give even better pictures. On one thing we differ: I found the B4 definately absorbing a visible amount of light. We all know that REDs light sensitivity is not its biggest asset. B4 is for docu people and they (I) need as much light sensitivity as possible. 2K cannot be pushed in this regard as 4K can. 2K is prone to noise.

Someone who is used to the light sensitivity and sleek ergonomics of a current high end HD camcorder will be disappointed when using RED.
As you said, you own a F900R and that has a reason...

Hans

Thanks Hans..

In my experience the light loss using the RED B4 adaptor is minimal. Also in my extended experience with 2k on RED, if it is shot correctly, noise really isn't an issue. The 2k footage I've shot with RED ONE using the RED B4 adaptor and 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms is clean and crisp. When the 2k RC RAW files are given a good curve and color corrected, they intercut very well with footage from our F900.

When we have our RED ONE cameras in a hand held in EFP setup, with our Fujinon 13x4.5, RED EVF, Element Technica EVF mount, B4 to RS232/12v power cable, ET aluminum top rods (12"), and RED Drive, the ergonomics, form factor, size, and weight of the rig are almost identical to our F900 - plus we have the post versatility of shooting in RAW. RED ONE can make a very capable long-form programming camera (docos, etc.) with that setup. The major difference between the F900 and our EFP setup RED ONE, is that after the shooting is finished we can quickly breakdown RED ONE, and re-lens and re-accessorize it for straight cine-style production, and then shoot 4k and 3k. Can't do that with the F900. Naturally with RED we have to back up r3d files each night, but IMO that's the small price we pay for the added versatility and creative options of shooting RAW.

The 4k and 3k footage we've shot, obviously using 35mm cine or 35mm still lenses, when down-sampled to 1080p ProRes 422 HQ, looks better than the B4 originated 2k down-sampled to 1080p ProRes 422 HQ, but then that's to be expected. But even then, the 2k corrected properly will intercut with the down-sampled 4k and 3k for certain applications. As mentioned in my previous post, two of my B4 originated 2k shots were intercut with several of the 4k shots by myself and others in the "Shot on RED" piece that was screened in the RED NAB tent this year.

I am used to the light sensitivity of high-end HD EFP/ENG cameras and their sleek ergonomics, and I've been using RED ONE setup in EFP mode as described above, off and on for eight months now - and no, I'm not disappointed in RED ONE's EFP setup capability and performance at all.

For the several doco-style television programs and feature we're producing right now, we're using seven RED ONE cameras, one Sony HDC1500, One Sony F900R, and two Sony EX1. We own a CineFlex gimbal system, and several custom water housings, for RED ONE and the EX1. We use each camera system for what it does best - like painters with a set of paint brushes. With the announcement of EPIC and Scarlet, the F900R will be sold, and I expect our camera kits next year to consist of: eight EPIC, four RED ONE, ten Scarlet, and one Sony HDC1500 (because it works in our CineFlex).

 

[Stuart English]

2K image quality

2K image quality

Is it as crisp as footage shot using those same lenses on our F900R – not quite, but reasonably close. Is it perfectly suited for HDTV acquisition and high-end business media production. IMO yes.

Also bear in mind that the RED-ONE records the images with no Sharpness added. For HDTV use you can ( and should ) add some in post.

Shooting RED-ONE in 2K is not exactly the same as shooting on an F900 with Detail OFF, but that would be a lot closer...

 

[johannperry]

Summary
Is the use of B4 lenses a viable option on RED ONE. Definitely, depending of course on the needs of your production. Does the “look and feel” of B4 originated footage from RED ONE match that from dedicated 2/3” high-end camcorders? Not quite, but it is close, plus you have the flexibility of shooting RAW. Should someone buy a RED ONE solely just to use their 2/3” lenses and shoot just 2K. IMO no – they should also use 35mm cine and 35mm still lenses on RED ONE and shoot 4k and 3k – why not maximize the utility of the camera. Should someone rush out and buy 2/3” lenses just to use on RED ONE? It depends on your finances and the genres you usually shoot in. If you don’t do a lot of 2/3” production, you should probably just rent the RED B4 adaptor and B4 lenses when you specifically need them for a project. I'm sure Mitch Gross at Abel Cine Tech, or your local rental house, would hook you up with what you need to rent.

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond so comprehensively to my query. As always your post has been a huge help to me, and very encouraging being based on some solid real life experience.
I was interested to hear that you EFP Red setup was ergonomically pleasing as I had got concerns about handheld work with it for prolonged periods after playing with one for a few hours.
So this leads me to another question;
are you more tired with your Red EFP setup or the F900 on your shoulder for a couple of hours?

Many thanks again
Johann

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond so comprehensively to my query. As always your post has been a huge help to me, and very encouraging being based on some solid real life experience.
I was interested to hear that you EFP Red setup was ergonomically pleasing as I had got concerns about handheld work with it for prolonged periods after playing with one for a few hours.
So this leads me to another question;
are you more tired with your Red EFP setup or the F900 on your shoulder for a couple of hours?

Many thanks again
Johann

Glad to help Johann…

My RED EFP setup (with Fujinon 13x4.5) weighs close to the same as the F900R with the same lens attached. With both cameras for shoulder held shooting I use a Filmtools Camera Comfort Cushion. It is a simple, inexpensive shoulder pad that has cross straps to keep it in place on your shoulder. In a full day of shoulder held shooting trapezius muscle cramps can be a problem. This simple shoulder pad is light, comfortable, and keeps your shoulder from getting sore.

Link: http://www.filmtools.com/camera-comfort-cushion-com.html

I work hard at staying in good physical condition so I can get the type of mobile shots I do. I’m 6’1” and 200 lbs, so hand holding large cameras all day long isn’t a problem for me – high angles, low angles, and shoulder held.

To me, with RED ONE in a lightweight mobile setup, running and gunning all day with it hand held, feels the same ergonomically as any other large sized EFP camcorder.

 

[johannperry]

To me, with RED ONE in a lightweight mobile setup, running and gunning all day with it hand held, feels the same ergonomically as any other large sized EFP camcorder.

As someone who has spent a considerable amount of the last 10 years with a large hunk of metal and glass on my right shoulder that is very good to hear.