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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is Red one bad for music videos?

NoahK said:
Sigh- you know what- RED can do whatever you want it to. Just hire a DP who knows how to light for you...

Noah
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Sigh - I'm not the believer profile, I need proves. ;) Until now I haven't seen the footage to convince me it can give warm and deep colors.

to joelnet: yes I will rent one for testing. But as many people around here are owners, have footage, I figured that someone would have something convincing.

Other references:
photo03.jpg

photo10.jpg

photo00.jpg
 
That's a pretty high watermark you're setting for yourself. But I'll guarantee the following- if you hire Wong Kar Wai to direct and Chris Doyle HKSC to shoot it you'll be more than capable of deriving those exact images with a RED. It's the painter not the paintbrush....

Noah
 
NoahK said:
That's a pretty high watermark you're setting for yourself. But I'll guarantee the following- if you hire Wong Kar Wai to direct and Chris Doyle HKSC to shoot it you'll be more than capable of deriving those exact images with a RED. It's the painter not the paintbrush....

Noah
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It is yet to prove that you can do anything with any tool, especially in digital world. I will share your optimism when I will have seen promising stuff. :)

So if red is so flexible, that's great, but for the moment I haven't seen it. I immediatly opened the Khondji thread and footage, since he has recently done Blueberry Night, has a long story with colour, but was disappointed to watch footage less colourful than the making off of that same shooting. I suppose that was on purpose, but I'm still waiting for promising shots in term of colour...

And I don't specially want to see these frames I'm showing, what I want is warm and deep reds, blues, yellows, like, amongst others, in those films.

I'm originally a painter (I mean visual artist, not the one who makes the decoration of your bathroom ^^ ), and maybe I am very demanding in term of light, colour etc. but still you keep telling me I can do anything and gives me nothing to believe you. I'm not looking for a weakness here, but promises of a satisfactory result, if I'm convinced I won't mind telling it. :innocent:

For now what I see is more this (bad repros, but yet you'll see my point)

rembrandt__vieille_femme_en_train_de_lire02_380.jpg


than this

matisse_open_window_270x323.jpg


So in terms of imaging, we are in the clair-obscur world, with pale colours, and I'm looking for the other trend.
 
thanks Mike, more saturated colour, blue skies. That looks more in the trend I'm looking for. Yet it's strange because some shots are quite saturated while some are more pale (WS of the guy throwing the first stone for instance). Anyway it seems possible to get a colourful image. I'll enjoy to experiment with the camera, I feel.

What colour process did you use after the shooting? only Red alert/cine?
 
precious said:
I asked the question before but i didn't get any satisfying response. what i am trying to know is whether there is more to achieving a good skin tone than just the camera it self.
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Yes. You give the example of a "beauty" music video, so let me go over the main components.

MAKEUP. Glam squad makes upwards of $5k a day on something like this. Makeup is hugely important, so important that the artist generally has their own people that are shipped in from wherever. Again, MAKEUP. Any director or DP who wants to start making looks like this would be smart to gain a makeup artist as a friend. It's funny you keep talking about "shine", and forget completely about makeup.

DP/Lighting. That gloss you keep referring to is 90% the work of where the lights are and the relative size of those sources, in co-operation with makeup.

BEAUTY WORK. This is the one that never gets mentioned. All these diva videos spend time in a Flame/Quantel suite to smooth over skin, and generally make face/body look better. I once sat in a session (that was 4 days long, I was told), where all the Harry operator did was smooth out Willa Ford's skin, and in some cases, make her chest bigger. I'm not joking. We're talking about $20,000 for this on a $130K video.

Precious, the camera can do the job. If you don't like the answer, then fine, but it's not about the camera.
 
David Block said:
I know they are graded but I have seen graded footage shot with Red, without finding any image achieving this kind of look I'm looking for. Let me give you examples.

ran_sc1.jpg

2046_photo.jpg

2001SpaceOdyssey094.jpg


And can anyone produce here a still from a Red Shot that can achieve these kinds of look, I would be convinced. Especially the first and third ones.

I add that I'm convinced by the camera in many cases, including music video clips... yet for feature films, I still haven't seen a frame dramatized by colour and shot with Red. I'm waiting for the Che experience footage, meanwhile I am eager to see a still that I could grade in Photoshop to fully convince me, without any doubt any more. Cause I still have some doubt about the colour treatment in the process.
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this clip matches ur second example pretty dead on:

http://www.dv3productions.com/red/red_test_sd.mov

and i have to agree with the comment that none of your examples looks terribly saturated. in fact the first one looks like it could be achieved in DV colorspace
 
weirdcrew said:
David,

I've been browsing this thread of an on out of boredom. What is your problem? If you don't trust anything you test it. That's what we do.

Get your sorry ass up and tell your DP to get some tests running.

Spielberg does it, I do it and you sure as hell should do it!


Fredrik Callinggard
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quite frankly, if you're bored, get your sorry eyes out of the topic, and don't feel allowed to insult me! you're quite unfriendly.

I have already answered that... I'll do all the testing I can afford, but what's the purpose of this forum?
only "whaowing" some footage from very proud owners like yourself probably? I felt it was a good place to ask for visual elements to answer a question I have. If you don't feel the same, nobody forces you to keep following it, but most certainly, do not feel obliged to be so unpleasant.

Don't talk about the Spielberg testing, that's ridiculous. If I spend a day of renting for testing I don't want to lose it for the wrong camera. I cannot rent the phantom, the dalsa, the arri D21, the Red one and then the new Sony camera...

And that is precisely because I'm not Spielberg, and will be shooting a low budget short movie.

I can't believe it, if Red is only for elite high budget cinema, one should say so. I'm not in Hollywood here.... and if one can not ask for elements about the Red on this forum, where can that be done?

So mister, I feel your reaction quite unneccessary.
 
Nice colors? Um problem is allways between camera and floor or between keyboard and chair :whistling:
So if you dont know, rent somebody or learn it.
 
David Block said:
quite frankly, if you're bored, get your sorry eyes out of the topic, and don't feel allowed to insult me! you're quite unfriendly.

I have already answered that... I'll do all the testing I can afford, but what's the purpose of this forum?
only "whaowing" some footage from very proud owners like yourself probably? I felt it was a good place to ask for visual elements to answer a question I have. If you don't feel the same, nobody forces you to keep following it, but most certainly, do not feel obliged to be so unpleasant.

Don't talk about the Spielberg testing, that's ridiculous. If I spend a day of renting for testing I don't want to lose it for the wrong camera. I cannot rent the phantom, the dalsa, the arri D21, the Red one and then the new Sony camera...

And that is precisely because I'm not Spielberg, and will be shooting a low budget short movie.

I can't believe it, if Red is only for elite high budget cinema, one should say so. I'm not in Hollywood here.... and if one can not ask for elements about the Red on this forum, where can that be done?

So mister, I feel your reaction quite unneccessary.
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First I edited it and apologized because I saw that you had answered it. Secondly I deleted it.

But yes you can find ways of testing with these cameras without it turning your wallet inside out. You can even get to test shot film and get it developed if you really want to. All it does is that it takes time, to call and ask for it and find people willing to help you.

But to actually answer your question. YES it can deliver very saturated colors. All it takes is a preference of having so and light and grade for it. The red will have the same problems as any camera/ workflow when it comes to such saturated colors as Wong Kar Wai's "2046", but it won't stop it. It will have noise in the blue channel but any camera has. So the answer is that when wanting to do extremes, the only thing to do is to test it.

If you can't test you either take the chance and find out. Or you step a few steps back and go with the safe. Personally I've always taken the chance.

I just think that no one is sure what you really want, you say that RED doesn't give saturated files. We tell you that it needs process to become so, just like film. You say that everything you see is boringly de-saturated, we tell you it's the preference of the maker. You show examples, which are very apart to each other. What you see in your three pictures as examples are not what I see.


It's a matter of preference and in a way all your saying is that you're not impressed with the taste of others on this forum.

All we can say is, either you wait until you see something that you like or you have to try to understand when people say what it's capable of. Or you try to test it for the exact preferences you're after. Or you take the chance. The last option is the boring one - stick with what you know, but how are you gonna develop then?


Fredrik Callinggard
 
Brandon said:
this clip matches ur second example pretty dead on:

http://www.dv3productions.com/red/red_test_sd.mov

and i have to agree with the comment that none of your examples looks terribly saturated. in fact the first one looks like it could be achieved in DV colorspace
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probably because these are highly compressed stills from DVDs or so ;)

The image is from Kurosawa's Ran, I doubt you can achieve this photography in DV colourspace. ;)

EDIT: thks for the footage, interesting. But still in clair-obscur. Anyway I feel there is potential in colour reproduction.
 
weirdcrew said:
But yes you can find ways of testing with these cameras without it turning your wallet inside out. You can even get to test shot film and get it developed if you really want to. All it does is that it takes time, to call and ask for it and find people willing to help you.
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if you say so...if that's so easy, I will certainly get it, even a lab working for free for me, that's nice and, as they are already working for free: a test from DI to film, please, that would be awesome. :tongue:

Actually I had a Red in my hands, but to get out of the rent house and do the testing, I have to pay. So I prefer ask a question in a forum before to choose which camera I'll test further, because that is for sure absolutely free. ;)

But to actually answer your question. YES it can deliver very saturated colors. All it takes is a preference of having so and light and grade for it. The red will have the same problems as any camera/ workflow when it comes to such saturated colors as Wong Kar Wai's "2046", but it won't stop it. It will have noise in the blue channel but any camera has. So the answer is that when wanting to do extremes, the only thing to do is to test it.

If you can't test you either take the chance and find out. Or you step a few steps back and go with the safe. Personally I've always taken the chance.
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thanks for the feedback, we'll do our best. I'm quite certain about that.

I just think that no one is sure what you really want, you say that RED doesn't give saturated files. We tell you that it needs process to become so, just like film. You say that everything you see is boringly de-saturated, we tell you it's the preference of the maker. You show examples, which are very apart to each other. What you see in your three pictures as examples are not what I see.
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I did not talk that way "boringly desaturated"! I love much of the footage I've seen in this forum.(The Closet stills, the Kondji commercials, videoclips, commercials etc., even suburban footage without additional light) It's just that it left me with a question, since my project is not in a "clair-obscur" mood (do not know the word in English), and I had not seen any footage in that path of colour treatment I'm looking for. I was wondering whether that would come from the specific process in digital 4k, 2K (Phantom or Red One), and then I should aim for 16mm stock to get what I want.

The examples I gave are just about colour treatment: dramatization through colour.
The examples are just fine to understand the part colour is playing in these movies, and I'll try to build on that path in mine, in a more modest way.
I love clair-obscur films too. Nestor Almendros for instance achieved great imaging that way. Or Khondji in Alien 4 etc. I do not love Matisse more than Rembrandt, I like both but they are different styles, different moods, different stories and I want the Matisse use of colour for this project, that's all.

It's a matter of preference and in a way all your saying is that you're not impressed with the taste of others on this forum.
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Nope, not at all... I didn't mean that at all. Sorry that you felt this way, let's put it on my English, which is not my mother language.

All we can say is, either you wait until you see something that you like or you have to try to understand when people say what it's capable of. Or you try to test it for the exact preferences you're after. Or you take the chance. The last option is the boring one - stick with what you know, but how are you gonna develop then?
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I have answers to my question. The subject is closed for me. But now I'm bored too to have to justify myself for asking that question, thanks mate . :ph34r:
 
gunleik said:
BTW, kudos for picking that RAN shot... One of my all time favourite movies.


Gunleik
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Thanks, gunleik

Im a big fan of Kurosawa: Ran, Rashomon, Seven Samurai, Dersou Ouzala, Kagemusha, Hidden Fortress etc.

I adore that man,and his work, most of his films.

I also love Mizoguchi in Japanese cinema of these times.
 
David,

I know this sounds crazy, but how about testing different lighting setups with a still digital camera. Then try different color correction methods.

Also to add another piece of your puzzle talk to a Production Designer, get into the saturated-color spaces you want to shoot. Paint them, if they start looking in real life like what you want to achive it is going to help so much. Trust your eye first.

Good luck,

Julian
 
Julian Banos said:
David,

I know this sounds crazy, but how about testing different lighting setups with a still digital camera. Then try different color correction methods.

Also to add another piece of your puzzle talk to a Production Designer, get into the saturated-color spaces you want to shoot. Paint them, if they start looking in real life like what you want to achive it is going to help so much. Trust your eye first.

Good luck,

Julian
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I totally agree for the set design, these two aspects (photography and production design) are completely linked. Will do that certainly.

thanks for the input :)
 
precious said:
Most artists on MTV music videos always have a shiny skin tone that the film cameras achieves for them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF84pIhP5UM

But after reviewing so many music videos shot on red one, for example watch this video http://www.vimeo.com/902113/ I have noticed that red one doesn't achieve a shiny skin tone which is a very important artistic tool when you are dealing with music videos.
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The video listed here looks like it has nothing but available lighting. To try to color correct a scene it helps to have a slightly more condensed exposure range.
 
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