A Few Post-NAB Questions for RED...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just have a few post-NAB questions. Mostly things I didn't think of at the time or I forgot to ask as I tried to crash through all the exhibits in a single day.

New PL Mount?
There is a new collar design on the PL mount shown in the renderings of Epic and the RED One. This new mount was also there on the EPIC prototype in the case. Is it just a new collar design or are there further design changes to the mount? Is this something that new cameras will be shipping with anytime soon?

Carbon X Rods...
Just how strong are they? What sort of flex or deflection are they capable of? What happens if they do break, do they splinter or shatter? I'm told they are stronger and lighter than regular CF rods. Can the 24" Carbon X rods be used to support heavier lenses like the Optimo 24-290?

18-85mm front diameter, what is it?

How soon will the new 7" LCD ship to customers. Will there be a long wait for those of us in the >1000 serial number range?

How soon can we expect the new 300mm with the updated housing?

 

[Nathan Garofalos]

The 18-85 is 139mm diameter.

 

[Finner]

Jeff CF rods are nothing short of trouble. I know you play hockey so I am sure you have seen NHL games where a CF stick blows up. Stats show that CF hockey sticks fail over 10 times more often then wood sticks. With stats like that CF rods are not something I would ever trust to support my expensive matte box, follow focus and lenses. The small weight savings is not worth the risk.

P.S.- How on earth did you get so much uglier since LART? Please say hi to your sister for me.

cheers
D

 

[Häakon]

There is a new collar design on the PL mount shown in the renderings of Epic and the RED One.

I asked about the collar and was told it was an updated design that will ship with Epic and likely be offered as an upgrade to RED ONE along with the sensor upgrade when the new sensor is ready.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff CF rods are nothing short of trouble. I know you play hockey so I am sure you have seen NHL games where a CF stick blows up.

I have to disagree on those stats... CF hockey sticks fail a lot more than 10X as often as wood ones. Nothing more fun than having a CF stick splinter on a slapshot and then try to pick the fibers out of my hand and glove between shifts. OK, that's somewhat of an exaggeration, that's only happened once with the picking out the splinters. But I don't buy CF hockey sticks anymore because the going rate is $110 to $150 for most of them and they're only good for a game or two before they split and usually from some joker taking a slash.

The RED Carbon X rods aren't your typical carbon fiber. According to Randy at RED, they are stronger and lighter than their regular CF rods, which are not available yet. I'm mostly interested in the Carbon X Rods for top-mounting accessories and keeping the weight down. But I'd do a pair of 24" if they could reliably hold a 24-290.

How is the resistance to UV with the X rods? Regular CF doesn't like long exposures to sunlight and my camera will be spending 80% of its time outdoors.

P.S.- How on earth did you get so much uglier since LART?

That's an easy question to answer... You must have sobered up since the last time you saw me.

 

[Russ Fill]

What do you guy's do? Work in FX

What do you guy's do? Work in FX

Unless you are going to be doing slapshots with you camera using the matte box to direct the puck. I worked a few years making CF parts for sail boats and even with loads of thousands of Lb's the only failures were very slow or you would start to notice a crack and then fix or replace it. Even with the heaviest lens on the rods its not going to fail like in a Hollywood movie. Unless you drop your 20lb lens on the rod from a few feet up. I think you will be thinking about something else than a $180 set of rods.

The UV is a good question. CF won't break down but some of the resins will. They can do a final coating with uv protection. I'm a little worried about when they get really hot and start to get a little sticky.

At the lengths we are talking about there should be almost no flexing you could notice. Rember when you connect the lens to the support that crosses the rods you great a box. In engineering terms. This is about as strong as a shape as you can come up with.

 

[mhandy]

Carbon Fibre Sticks/Rods

Carbon Fibre Sticks/Rods

One of the reasons so many composite sticks break is that they don't show signs of deterioration. You can feel when a wood stick is starting to give so you retire it before it explodes in your hands.

Is anyone planning to take a slapshot with a carbon fibre rod? Sounds like fun. I'm in.

 

[Mike Prevette]

Finner is right, under no circumstances should CF rods be trusted. It's just a poor use of a great material. The kind of stress, the clamping, abuse, it's all the exact opposite of what CF is good at. it's just a poor material for this kind of work, great for airplane wings, not so much for iris rods.

The weight difference between them and the ET ultra rods is so minor it's not even worth arguing over.

When I was an AC my reputation rode on (among other things) making sure nobody or nothing got hurt because of my actions. And watching a MB-19 fall 20 feet off a jib and crash into an actresses head is not my idea of a good time.

It's just not worth the risk.

 

[conrad gaunt]

At the lengths we are talking about there should be almost no flexing you could notice. Rember when you connect the lens to the support that crosses the rods you great a box. In engineering terms. This is about as strong as a shape as you can come up with.

I thought eggs were the strongest shape? :turned:

 

[Finner]

Finner is right, under no circumstances should CF rods be trusted. It's just a poor use of a great material. The kind of stress, the clamping, abuse, it's all the exact opposite of what CF is good at. it's just a poor material for this kind of work, great for airplane wings, not so much for iris rods.

The weight difference between them and the ET ultra rods is so minor it's not even worth arguing over.

Thanks Mike thats exactly what I was getting at as I do not plan to take slap shots with the rods. The clamping is stress CF does not like.

I own the Element Technica rods and they are fantastic. The minor weight advantage with carbon fibre rods are not worth all the disadvantages that come withthem.

 

[sparkhope]

What about the carbon X rods? they're not mesh so they shouldn't be "explosive". Were they present at NAB or did I miss them?

 

[dVonAllmen]

Someone at the Red tent told me 60 days before the 7" LCD starts shipping. And as we know specs and delivery dates are not subject to any changes.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Elements Ultra Rods are light and durable and priced very well...

Is this about appearance ? The weight difference would be less than a single 4x5.6 filter.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I know you play hockey so I am sure you have seen NHL games where a CF stick blows up. Stats show that CF hockey sticks fail over 10 times more often then wood sticks.

Right, but there are ways around this problem. In Torino Olympics 2006 Teppo Numminen, who also plays in NHL in Buffalo Sabres, was the only player who used the same stick the whole tournament all the way to the final game. He owns the Montreal hockey stick factory http://www.montrealhockey.com/index/en/home/company/main.htmland and they use a special resin/epoxy from Amroy Europe www.amroy.fi which includes carbon nanotubes. This is one of the few true working applications around nano technology hype and the epoxy changes dramatically the whole picture.

Those who are interested in material science, see http://www.expresspolymlett.com and pick Vol 2, Nr.1, Y. X. Zhou, P. X. Wu, Z-Y. Cheng, J. Ingram, S. Jeelani: Improvement in electrical, thermal and mechanical properties of epoxy by filling carbon nanotube, 2(1), pp. 40-48, 2008

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The element technica rods are awesome, I have some and have more on order. But they do flex more than steel and ET is aware of this. They even go as far to say we shouldn't use their ultra rods to support the 24-290.

The Carbon X Rods were on display at NAB. They are light! I couldn't flex one with the amount of force I was willing to apply to it. But I didn't want to try breaking it over my knee or anything like that... I don't doubt they are very strong. They are very light and I would definitely be interested in them for handheld configurations.

My concerns are.. If they are strong enough to support the really big lenses? Will they hold up under direct sunlight? How much stress can they take? What about continuous clamping and compression? That clamping or compression of the tube is what damages normal CF rods over time, causing them to weaken and splinter.

 

[Charles Perkins]

...

 

[Greg M]

I realize its not quite the same as rods, but I have CF sticks under my Sachtler head. They are 14+ years old and are used 7 days a week 300+ days a year. They are beat to shit by various crews who could care less because they didnt pay for them and they still perform like the day I bought them.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

chas,

I agree with you in regards to bikes and various other applications of carbon fiber. I think where the problem with CF rods for film gear use come from is just poor construction quality. Thin tube structures, etc.. I've seen CF rods from other manufacturers (like Cavision) and they just suck. Some of them don't even arrive from the factory straight. But It's not uncommon to see only one or two layers of fiber mesh, often more resin than fiber, etc.. I haven't seen any CF rods for film/video use that I would trust for any long term or critical use. But it doesn't have to be this way... There are various forms and implementations of carbon fiber available that are very durable. Like you point out for use in bikes, some for car parts, aircraft, etc.. My wife's road bike is all CF. I'm still old-school by comparison and prefer my aluminum mountain bike.

I will reserve judgement on RED's CF rods if/when they ship. They have been a long time coming. I suppose it's because RED is trying to get it right. Jarred even had one of their earlier rods "explode" due to clamping or at least that's what I remember of earlier reports.

The Carbon X rods are NOT CF mesh in typical resin. They are something different. I'd really like some more information and specs, what we can expect, etc.. As I said before, Randy at RED told me they are stronger and lighter than regular CF rods. I'm probably going to just order a set of the 24" Carbon X and start using them. I'll see what happens. The weight savings of the 24" is pretty significant, even over the ET ultra rods.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Good point on the sticks, Greg. I have CF sticks for my Miller Arrow55 and they are solid. Miller claims the tripod can support 220lbs, it's very sturdy. They are not your typical hatch-pattern CF either, but still not the same as the RED Carbon X rods. Anyway, haven't had the Miller long enough (just a few months), but I'm happy with the sticks (and the head) so far.

 

[Mike Prevette]

Chas,

Ask any composite engineer what CF is good for and what it isn't. Clamping while maintaining dimensional accuracy will be on the not good list.