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For the Red team - mechanical shutter and through-lens viewfinder

Richard Lackey

Richard Lackey

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I have a question that has been plaguing me since I first heard of the Red One.

From a design perspective, what would it take to have a true optical viewfinder (through the lens) and mechanical shutter on a camera like the Red One or upcoming Epic?

What are the pro's and con's from a design or implementation perspective and why was a purely digital viewfinder and electronic shutter chosen?

Would a optical viewfinder and mechanical shutter ever be considered?

I hope I can get some answers from the Red team as well as some thoughts of other Reduser members.
 
"From a design perspective, what would it take to have a true optical viewfinder (through the lens) and mechanical shutter on a camera like the Red One or upcoming Epic?"

Why? EVF through the sensor is always wysiwyg. It doesn't matter what you see in the lens if it's not on your hard drive. And a rolling shutter still have a lot skew and other artifact problems etc
 
JNAD said:
"From a design perspective, what would it take to have a true optical viewfinder (through the lens) and mechanical shutter on a camera like the Red One or upcoming Epic?"

Why? EVF through the sensor is always wysiwyg. It doesn't matter what you see in the lens if it's not on your hard drive. And a rolling shutter still have a lot skew and other artifact problems etc
Click to expand...

but the red shoots raw...and what you see is a 720p output with a rec709 colorspace...but the "raw"-view will be enabled in the near future.


----and altering the ASA settings this could lead to false desicions, so right now the histogram is the wysiwyg------correct me if i am wrong
 
OK. IMHO it's more WYSIWYG then an optic EVF. Or..? What's the story with an optic EVF?
 
ps. Is it possible to see problems with for example flickering through an optical EVF? ds.
 
opt. viewfinder-----you can almost see if your lens is in focus.
mechanical shutter----no rolling shutter artefacts, less skew

is this combination possible to build:
optical shutter, but electr. viewfinder?

----correct me if i am wrong
 
I would think using a mechanical shutter would take more power and is unnecessary. From my understanding the idea of electronic light acquisition is to collect the stream of analog light in finite samples of time, giving you frame rate. Then take that data to storage as fast as possible to allow for high efficiency.

There are many way to judge color and focus. I don't think viewfinders and mechanical shutters are the answer.
 
4K Hub said:
What are the pro's and con's from a design or implementation perspective and why was a purely digital viewfinder and electronic shutter chosen?
Click to expand...

My thoughts are I looked through every optical viewfinder I could at NAB and I think the RED EVF looks better. Pretty much game over right there. And that's before you even get into data in the display, the ability to apply a digital look to what you're seeing, the ability to brighten or darken and the other advantages of a digital preview.

I've never seen skew in the EVF personally. I guess it could happen. But maybe it would be better to see it so you could correct for it right there by changing the shot a bit. So optical wouldn't do you any favors there either.

I sure wouldn't want the light loss P&S has said will come with their optical viewfinder for RED.
 
JNAD said:
ps. Is it possible to see problems with for example flickering through an optical EVF? ds.
Click to expand...
Have you ever shot on a motion picture camera with an optical viewfinder? It sounds like you haven't, and it also sounds like you are pretty damn opinionated without much knowledge to back it up.

Stop giving out false information, based on your assumptions.
 
If you take a look inside a film camera you can see how much room a mechanical shutter takes up, not to mention the maze of optical blocks required for an optical viewfinder.

The D20 (now D21) is a great camera, and I don't want to knock Arri at all, I love the company, but a mechanical shutter is an analog solution applied to the digital world in my opinion. Improvements to the sensor will only make a mechanical shutter obsolete, again, in my opinion, it has already (so I guess Red doesn't make all obsolescence obsolete :) )

Hey, I went to the Arri booth at NAB, I tried out the D21 (handheld, no less). It was sweet. And looking through that optical viewfinder and mechanical shutter made me feel all tingly inside. But I believe we're passed that.

I am sad to see these things go. I absolutely love film. And will probably continue to shoot with it from time to time. But if I get too nostalgic I remember that negative report I got back from Deluxe after developing nearly 8,000 ft. (which was a lot for me). What did it say? "Oh, ah it appears your film is fogged."

Turns out one of the mags had a light leak.
 
From an engineering standpoint of the camera, I don't believe there would be any benefit to a mechanical shutter. The issue isn't in how the sensor is exposed. Rather, it is how the data is sampled and buffered from the sensor. This is a function of the sensor, and no mechanical wizardry done in front of the sensor will change that. Specifically addressing skew with a physical rolling shutter, you are still exposing one end of the sensor at a different moment in time than you are the opposite end - thus, skew. This principal is the same, regardless of physical or electronic shutter.
 
pablano said:
I am sad to see these things go. I absolutely love film. And will probably continue to shoot with it from time to time. But if I get too nostalgic I remember that negative report I got back from Deluxe after developing nearly 8,000 ft. (which was a lot for me). What did it say? "Oh, ah it appears your film is fogged."

Turns out one of the mags had a light leak.
Click to expand...

This is why the 1st AC is responsible for doing a barrier of tests during prep. Sorry yours did not.

The thing is, many SOC guys love the D20 because of the spinning mirror. I know I do because it feels real. They also love uderscan (so do I). We all have to adjust. I couldn't see the need for a spinning mirror in the RED.
 
Jamie Metzger said:
This is why the 1st AC is responsible for doing a barrier of tests during prep. Sorry yours did not.

The thing is, many SOC guys love the D20 because of the spinning mirror. I know I do because it feels real. They also love uderscan (so do I). We all have to adjust. I couldn't see the need for a spinning mirror in the RED.
Click to expand...


Yes you're right. But tests were done. Something happened to the mag, somewhere along the line.

And I don't mean to discount how important the feel of a camera is for an operator. The D21 felt great on my shoulder, by the way, though maybe a little front heavy, (to make it clear, I'm not an operator, just my personal opinion).

As far as underscan goes you can see image outside the framelines with the Red. Or am I not understanding what you mean by underscan?
 
You can see so much more (sometimes) with an optical path. Most of the time you don't have the luxury of seeing past your framing guides for bogie objects.

Yes RED has room around the image....
 
K.Berlin said:
...so right now the histogram is the wysiwyg------correct me if i am wrong
Click to expand...

At the moment the histogram corresponds to the preview, so wysiwyg comes with "RAW-View" in build 16.
---
BTW NO to mechanical shutter and OVF.
 
Jamie Metzger said:
Have you ever shot on a motion picture camera with an optical viewfinder? It sounds like you haven't, and it also sounds like you are pretty damn opinionated without much knowledge to back it up.

Stop giving out false information, based on your assumptions.
Click to expand...

OK, Jamie, who apparently knows everything in the cine business:

There could NEVER BE ANY artifacts issues if mechanical shutter is used with digital sensor - in your opinion? NEVER!!!!!

If you have optical evf you will ALWAYS SEE EVERYTHING what so ever gets into the to hard drive - in your opinion? EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

And last, but not least: bad manners, Jamie, very bad manners indeed. And you quote my question in your post - and says it assumption. Do you have any problems with your reading comprehension? Your post is not nice at all, quite impropiate on Reduser.net!

If you can't keep the standard, please keep out!!!!!:ranting2:
 
Jamie Metzger said:
You can see so much more (sometimes) with an optical path. Most of the time you don't have the luxury of seeing past your framing guides for bogie objects.

Yes RED has room around the image....
Click to expand...

No it's not as much as you'd get with an OVF on a film camera, but I think it's pretty good as it is.

And I assume they'll be able to increase the underscan eventually.
 
Dominic Cochran said:
So Jnad, just curious; do you look at an LCD monitor and assume you are seeing any problems going to the Hard Drive at that point? If so, which magical monitor do you use?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

You are not curious at all - you just want to be smart and ask tricky questions. Please tell us your opinion straigth forward instead.
 
I don't know, maybe I am an old fashioned kind of guy, but why can't people keep civil tones in these forums? It's not like anyone benefits from outraged posts, not even those who write them.
 
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