Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are there any CURRENTLY AVAILABLE ND filter solutions for infrared on our REDs?

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
3,309
Reaction score
40
Points
48
Website
www.thetreemotionpicture.com
I am not at NAB, but, if I were, I'd be scouring the place looking for solutions to the ND filter/infrared problem. Since we're starting shooting in just about four weeks, and a lot of these shots will be outdoors in significant heat, we really need to have a workable solution by then.

What is available and shipping now that will solve this problem?

Stephen
 
The temporary solution is to use your normal ND's and put a hot mirror in front of them. Rosco sells hot mirrors in cine sizes, but the glass is kind of thin. They were able to deliver mine in a few days. It was inexpensive as far as that kind of thing goes.

Tiffen is making a clear hot mirror and a set of hot mirror ND's. Different product than the IR/ND's which don't help the IR pollution issue much on the Red.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Schneider optics is working on an IR filter in various sizes as well, not sure on date of availability though.
 
I spent all day yesterday going from Tiffen to Schneider, and to Format talking to them about this. It boils down to, yes. There is a current solution. You can either use a Hot Mirror like Matt was suggesting. But Tiffen already makes a combo filter that is an IR ND and I think is actively for sale right now. You'd have to contact a distributor for actual pricing. Here's the rub though. From asking all of the three major companies about their glass and their filters, I think Schneider is the one to go with. The problem with that, is that they don't have a combo filter yet. They don't know if they are going to make an IR ND but I strongly suggested to their R & D guy (Bob I think was his name) to make a combo filter. Continuing on the rub part. Tiffen's IR ND isn't really neutral. Schneider and Tiffen had them in their booths (Schneider for comparison of course) and Tiffen's IR ND is warm. So it is going to affect more than just your UV pollution and exposure. It will warm your image up. Which to me is a bad thing when it's supposed to be Neutral Density. Anyway, if you already have a set of ND's, you can buy a hot mirror. Schneider has one (either a hot mirror or IR filter, essentially the do the same thing, one reflects and one absorbs). Tiffen has one. And they have no light loss. So you could buy just that one filter, and then you'd be able to keep your set of ND's. But if you are starting from scratch, I'd suggest buying the new combo filters IR ND's. Which unfortunately are about 3-6 weeks out depending on the company. Keep in mind that if you are going to go with just the hot mirror or ir filter, you'll be taking up a slot in your matte box. If you're fine with that, then no prob. I'd prefer to keep as many slots available as possible. Anyway, hope that helps.
 
I just received a new hot mirror test glass from Rosco. It is thicker like a Schneider matte box filter and cuts deeper into the IR range than the one I tested in this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9412&highlight=infrared

I'll be doing a comparison test in the next couple of days and posting the results on the "RED and Infrared" thread.

Michael
 
Hey, Strongbad. . . since you're there at NAB. . . can you point me specific product that I should buy right now? I'll absolutely need a viable solution inside of a month, and currently I don't have any NDs at all. That is, is Tiffen selling their hotmirror at the present time?

Michael. . . is it your feeling that the Rosco will work wonders on this problem at the present time?

Thanks very much. This is a desperate situation.

Stephen
 
But Tiffen already makes a combo filter that is an IR ND and I think is actively for sale right now.
Click to expand...

That is not the correct Tiffen filter. They were showing off the IR NDs at NAB, but the filters Red owners will want are the "Hot Mirror IR NDs", which is different from the "IR NDs".

The Hot Mirror is sandwiched inside of the ND. They are rougly three weeks away and may cost 2x the IR NDs. The filters on the Film Tools site are the IR NDs, not the hot mirror version.
 
Stacey Spears said:
That is not the correct Tiffen filter. They were showing off the IR NDs at NAB, but the filters Red owners will want are the "Hot Mirror IR NDs", which is different from the "IR NDs".

The Hot Mirror is sandwiched inside of the ND. They are rougly three weeks away and may cost 2x the IR NDs. The filters on the Film Tools site are the IR NDs, not the hot mirror version.
Click to expand...
But according to the Tiffen techs, Schneider techs, and Format techs, they do essentially the same thing. One absorbs the UV rays, the other reflects them. But both give the same result. Can't say for sure if that's true as I'm just going off of what the guys who are actually making these things are telling me. But I agree with you. The ones that red users want are the ir nd's that they are still developing.

Stephen, Schneider had a standalone hot mirror AND a standalone IR filter. Either of those would work for you right now. But if your purchase time is within a month, you could probably wait until they release the better combo filter. All the developers told me 3 weeks, but more realistically 4 - 6 weeks. You'd need to contact a rep (Abel cine, or another one of your choice) that sells filters.

Oh, and another good point that Stacey pointed out, the combo filter that you'd probably want to buy is going to cost a lot more (I think Sandie at Tiffen suggested around 600-700). She couldn't say at the time because they hadn't made them yet.
 
maybe a stupid question but does a pola do the same thing that the ND is doing. Sometimes i use a pola even if its not working to control exposure.
 
they do essentially the same thing.
Click to expand...

The Tiffen employee told me that the IR ND covered a specific wavelength range while the hot mirror IR ND covered a much larger range. This is far from my area of expertise, so I can only pass along what was said.

They only literature they had on hand was for the IR ND filters.

He also made couple of other comments which sounded odd. He said that with this filter, you can face either side out because it is in the middle vs. a normal hot mirror with the coating on one side. He claimed there would be no problems stacking as well. I am a little more skeptical on these claims, but again, not my field.

He also mentioned someone came over and borrowed one of the filters to test on the Red. It might have been one of the 4k Ninja's. Perhaps the person who tested it can comment.
 
I'm tending to buy a hot mirror and normal NDs. This solution seems more future proved if the sensor/OLPF gets an upgrade or the IR pollution is addressed in another way.

Does anybody know if the new IR/ND filters block IR in different intensities? I mean does a IR/ND 1.2 block more IR than a 0.3. This could be a reason to go with the new IR/NDs.

Thank you guys for posting directly from NAB floor! :-)
 
You may order the current hot mirror in any custom size through your regional Rosco dealer. I order mine through stagespot.com here in Austin. Be aware of these caveats:
  • This glass is meant for use in front of lights not as an optical flat in a matte box. This is a bit of DIY adaptation. Even so, it does the job quite nicely.
  • The glass is thin, like picture glass. Actually, it is picture glass - borasilicate float glass.
  • The glass may be used in either direction.
  • The dichroic layer that actually does the work of cutting IR is susceptible to scratches like a lens coating. Be very careful when cleaning.
  • The edges of the glass, as delivered, have been given a quick polish to remove cutting edges but may have fine chips. I dress my edges further by rounding the edges and corners on a page of sandpaper. (Be very careful when cleaning the resulting glass dust off the flat surfaces.)
I'm using the Rosco hot mirror in front of my RED One all the time until a better solution comes along.

Michael
 
The only problem with having a separate hot mirror is that pretty soon you're filling up all the trays in your mattebox (so you've got a hot mirror in the front, then an ND in the second tray - what if you want some diffusion, or a pola or a grad - you'll need more trays, which is fine with something like an MB16 but not if you're handheld with something nice & light like an LMB-5). Worse still if you've only got a standard set of NDs (0.3, 0.6, 0.9) & you need to double them up, then that's two trays gone straight away and you still need the hot mirror in the front. Waiting for a combined ND/hot mirror makes a lot of sense or just get the Pancros?
 
davecw said:
The only problem with having a separate hot mirror is that pretty soon you're filling up all the trays in your mattebox...
Click to expand...

True, but the set is a place of constant innovation and jury-rigging. That's why there's so much tape on set - paper tape, gaffe tape...

I was 1st a.c. with my RED One on a short form project this week and needed four filters in my 2-stage Petroff matte box. The ultra polarizer went in the back stage, the .9ND in the front, and the IR Cut and .6ND GRAD paper taped at an angle inside the front of the box. No big deal. Happens all the time.

Now, I could have used a third stage in my box with an ND/IR CUT filter but I don't have that at present. (And, it appears that both RED and RED ROCK aren't delivering three-stage matte boxes either.)

As the U.S. Marines say; "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome."

Michael
 
Stacey Spears said:
The Tiffen employee told me that the IR ND covered a specific wavelength range while the hot mirror IR ND covered a much larger range. This is far from my area of expertise, so I can only pass along what was said.

They only literature they had on hand was for the IR ND filters.

He also made couple of other comments which sounded odd. He said that with this filter, you can face either side out because it is in the middle vs. a normal hot mirror with the coating on one side. He claimed there would be no problems stacking as well. I am a little more skeptical on these claims, but again, not my field.

He also mentioned someone came over and borrowed one of the filters to test on the Red. It might have been one of the 4k Ninja's. Perhaps the person who tested it can comment.
Click to expand...

I might be the guy Robert ( from Tiffen Burbank ) is talking about - I went up to Tiffen the week before NAB with friend / awesome D.P. Jake Kerber and we did some tests with ND's IR/ND's and a Hot Mirror. Basically we found that the IR/ND's don't remedy the IR pollution on the Red you need to use a Hot Mirror. The hot mirror works when oriented either way - you will have less reflection issues if you put it in the front of your matte box with the coated part facing subject.

I consider a Hot Mirror as essential as ND's or a Pola when shooting with the Red, you don't need to use it at all times but it should be in your kit.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top