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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

epic 30k or 40 k USD?

I still don't understand how 5k from 4k can demand that much of a premium. In my experience with high-end digital cameras in the past, you could typically resample (using the best algorithms of course) the images from one generation to nearly match the images from the next. My sense is that the tonal range and resolution will be significantly improved in Mysterium X. In other words, if EPIC can't shoot "better" 4k than the RED, wouldn't that substantially decrease interest? Sure there are people who want to or need to shoot 5k but that's a small slice.

-shooter
 
I haven't seen any where, but have they mentioned the Epic's level of DR and color space bit?

Red is 12bit in raw right? Will Epic be 14 or dare I say, 16?
just curious
 
Just speculation but since the Epic does higher frame rates I suspect it has less of a rolling shutter as well. Combined with lower weight that's would be great for fast action stuff.
 
if you are "indie," is the RED ONE really not good enough any more?

Really?

It's still phenomenal!!!! :biggrin:

Unless your film is budgeted at over $30 million, I feel confident in saying that a RED ONE shooting 4k at REDCODE 36 is just fine. Um, actually it's better than fine...it's better than almost anything else out there. AND there have been reports that the RED ONE will get new Mysterium sensor anyway....

If you're shooting a studio picture for $70,000,000, then maybe the EPIC is worth the difference.

Remember, 6 months ago your choices were probably Varicam or F23, or in my case, a DVX-100B.:wacko:
 
100MB/s Redcode? Are you sure?

I think Redcode 28MB/s at 100 fps will make you land somewhere around 100MB/s

(yes I know It´s a bit more) than 100MB/s

Johlan
 
I don't understand why the high premium for 5k pixels over 4k either. Maybe if the sensor had a global shutter, that would justify it. But I don't think that's the case.
 
I honestly can't get over how people are talking about fair.

We are talking about a 5K cinema camera for godsake 40 grand for a body is AMAZING.

If you don't like it go and pay $250 000 for your Sony F23 and then expect to fork out that kinda cash again once the F35 comes out, but talking about fair regarding what RED is offering us boggles my mind!!!

Most people have absolutely no reason to get an EPIC anyway, just because it has more res, and a few new features you have to ask yourself is this necessary to go out and shoot a TVC or a Music Video? Epic is for people who are making movies, for anyone else RED ONE will not only do, but be MORE than enough, hell I feel privileged to be able to shoot my new Feature on RED.

RED, EPIC and SCARLETT target three different markets. Firstly ask yourselves what you use your camera for, then ask yourself 12 months ago, how much would you have paid for a camera that was 1/4 of the quality (if not more) and then if you still feel the need to complain, go buy a Sony and stop plaguing the Red User board about money!

I'm on these boards to learn about the technical brilliance AND limitations of RED, EPIC, SCARLETT and hear about peoples experience with them, not to hear people bitch and moan about what they can or can't afford, and what they think is fair or not.

So seriously stop whining and talking about fair. If we want to start talking about fair, start asking yourself why RED should give you a $17 500 trade in on your RED. If I were Jim I'd just revoke the offer to trade in the RED ONES, that is so generous it's not funny. I can't figure out how the guy is making the $$$, it's a complete customer orientated business model -- rare! Be appreciative of it!
 
mkt7@mac.com said:
I honestly can't get over how people are talking about fair.

We are talking about a 5K cinema camera for godsake 40 grand for a body is AMAZING.

If you don't like it go and pay $250 000 for your Sony F23 and then expect to fork out that kinda cash again once the F35 comes out, but talking about fair regarding what RED is offering us boggles my mind!!!

Most people have absolutely no reason to get an EPIC anyway, just because it has more res, and a few new features you have to ask yourself is this necessary to go out and shoot a TVC or a Music Video? Epic is for people who are making movies, for anyone else RED ONE will not only do, but be MORE than enough, hell I feel privileged to be able to shoot my new Feature on RED.

RED, EPIC and SCARLETT target three different markets. Firstly ask yourselves what you use your camera for, then ask yourself 12 months ago, how much would you have paid for a camera that was 1/4 of the quality (if not more) and then if you still feel the need to complain, go buy a Sony and stop plaguing the Red User board about money!
Click to expand...

My take (extensively cribbed from my latest Indie4K post):

In once sense, any negative reaction is totally irrational. Sure, the Epic costs twice as much as the Red One. But both the Epic and the Red One offer far more that what competing cameras offer in the same price range, or even at four times the price level. And, of course, Red is offering that full-value trade-in for Red One camera bodies, which is generous practically to the point of absurdity.

In another sense, though, the less than totally positive reactions were completely predictable. To understand why, don’t think about camera specs and price points. Think about mythology.

Unlike with Scarlet, I think it’s actually a bit of a stretch to say the Red One and the Epic target different markets. The Red One was marketed as an alternative to 35mm film for everything up to and including major motion pictures by major Hollywood directors. That firmly overlaps with Epic’s intended market. I think an important part of the “Red revolution” in many people’s minds was that they’d be able to buy and use the same tools as the pros at the top of the industry. Epic makes that less true; once Epic hits the market, many of the guys for whom money is no object are probably not going to be using the same camera as the indie filmmakers who put their faith in Red.

Now, given just how capable the Red One is, being bothered by this is basically irrational from any sort of practical standpoint. This doesn’t really cause any material harm to indies who can’t afford Epic, who have, obviously, still benefited hugely from what Red is doing. But it disrupts what we could call the “mythology” of Red, and that can be upsetting to people. This is, I suspect, the single largest reason why reaction the Epic has been somewhat mixed.

This sort of thing is always an issue for companies that become the focus of a mythology; reading RedUser.net over the last few days reminds me of nothing so much as reading Mac forums in the days after a MacWorld Expo; in virtually every case, regardless of what Apple announces at a MacWorld, some of Apple’s most loyal followers react negatively, usually because they’re holding the company to a ludicrously high standard and/or failing to take business realities into account.

Red (and Apple) shouldn’t worry about this stuff. People react so strongly because they care about the company and the product. In other words, this kind of reaction is generally an indication that you’re doing something right. As long as you keep building products that get people excited — even if that excitement sometimes takes the form of ardent criticism — you’re ahead of game in every respect that matters.
 
i am really curious to see what exactly makes the Epic so special...

maybe it has a rawport?
maybe a global shutter ?-edit its a 40% better rolling shutter
maybe a tungsten light sensor?
maybe an integrated 64 GB Flash ram?
or the high speed features?
the hardware parts, high quality?

i will enjoy my red for 12 months...enjoy the sdk release...enjoy...pictures...then enjoy the Scarlet....perfect b-cam,actioncam etc...

then look curious to the EPIC
maybe next year we will have a RED LEGEND---for Imax with a 65 mm....
 
Hi Murrali,
What are you ,the RED thought police?
Give us a break man. This is a discussion on a new product from RED
that happens to be more than twice the price of a previous product.
With what appears to be little difference between them.
This is cause for concern for some here and at the very least good reason
for discussion.
Please allow this to continue.
Mezmo
 
mezmo said:
Hi Murrali,
What are you ,the RED thought police?
Give us a break man. This is a discussion on a new product from RED
that happens to be more than twice the price of a previous product.
With what appears to be little difference between them.
This is cause for concern for some here and at the very least good reason
for discussion.
Please allow this to continue.
Mezmo
Click to expand...

Hey Gizmo,

you are talking about a render picture and some numbers...nothing more...you dont know what the red company will really present in 12 months...

and sorry if you cant make 20 k in a year with a red in your buisness model...then the red one is also the wrong camera...

if you can generate 20k...its cool...wait what they are offering...if you like it,buy it....if you dont like it...buy another red and a scarlet....easy...relax
 
sounds like someone wants to start his own camera company! nanohv, got a reel?
 
K.Berlin said:
Hey Gizmo,

you are talking about a render picture and some numbers...nothing more...you dont know what the red company will really present in 12 months...

and sorry if you cant make 20 k in a year with a red in your buisness model...then the red one is also the wrong camera...

if you can generate 20k...its cool...wait what they are offering...if you like it,buy it....if you dont like it...buy another red and a scarlet....easy...relax
Click to expand...

Hi Gaya (you put a 'G' on my name)
I was looking at a more complete system for RED ONE and that
included Scratch (cine) and Projection for mainly Feature based work.
Both units would also hire to outside clients.
The way you make money in business is by reducing costs and Red One represents excellent value for money but with the arrival of Eric, sorry EPIC
RED ONE will no longer be the most desirable camera.
This now puts an uncertain air thru my whole project. I'm a small producer
and can't afford to blow large amounts of cash on systems that are out of
development and replaced at more than double the cost every 12 months as technology bounds ahead.
RED will stop development on RED ONE at some point and youi'll be told
rather bluntly to buy the next gen product. Eric in this case.
Seen it all before man, already have about $300K invested in Kit.
Think they have a great product with RED ONE and all that was needed was a cool transition to RED TWO with a fair price rise.
As usual over there at RED, the marketing got the better of them.
Pity.
Cheers Mezmo
 
K.Berlin said:
i am really curious to see what exactly makes the Epic so special...
Click to expand...

To me RED is doing exactly the right thing from a business perspective.

They are making a camera that is better (by some degree) and selling it in a market where they have no real competition AND a set of buyers that spend $5K on a mattbox and $10k on a tripod. $40k on EPIC is nothing to them even it's 3% better. They get 6 EPIC's for one Sony F23. That's what's going on here. It is a slightly different market from RED ONE. It's a relatively price inelastic set of people. People often pay a lot more money for that last few % of quality.

With RED ONE at $17,500 they are leaving free money on the table by not having a higher end version.

Scarlet addresses everyone else. People will put adapters on Scarlet or just shoot it. At 3K and 2/3" you'll be able to get some decent shallow DOF out of the box.

You're never going to make everyone happy. Personally, I think RED are really starting to nail it.
 
Nanohv said:
"Our 5 lens prime set costs less than one Zeiss Master Prime. Our zoom costs 1/6th the price of an Optimo. We are building a very sharp set of digitally corrected lenses with the idea of getting glass into the hands of many."

Yeah....but with less quality...
Click to expand...

did you take a close look at the 18-85 ?
then did you go over to look at the Ang 17-80 ?
or the 30-80 ?

i can't make a call of which is less, more , equal, different till i know somebody that shoots with the new 18-85 .... i will say the Red 18-85 appears excellent , no ( as in zippo) breathing , smooth focus/zoom/Tstop ring !!!!
i didn't get a close up on the primes but the RED 18-85 is a REAL beauty !!
so far it is everything Red (JJ) said it would be ( and maybe more) ...
i'm in ! just tell me when to send the $$ ...
 
Hi joeinet,
Sorry to butt in here, but again your pushing the myth that EPIC will be some kind of F23.
Different animal as the F23 is part of a complete Sony system with $100K + noise reduction built into the box. Epic is what RED ONE is. A Laptop with Lenshole RAW data
computer cam. There's no indication from NAB info that it's anything other than a
hardware upgrade for RED ONE.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Mezmo
 
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