Dissapointment?...

[Bing Bailey]

the sensor is upgradable according to shawn nelson. I think this thread should be abandoned now.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

wow, I was late in posting... if chip is upgradeable disregard what I wrote below......

Guys. I think Red one still needs work. I think people are worried that what they had hoped they would get in Red One is now to be reserved for people who annie up another 20 grand. -- for me less grain in low light (11 stops) and no freaky vertical lines in grain pattern. (not many people are talking about this, but it is a big issue on both my cameras.) or higher frame rates with 35mm dof.... That is a valid concern. People bought red one thinking it was upgradeable. If the attitude becomes, "hey it's still a way good camera for the money" then I will be pissed. The images need work, and I hope that build 16 and 17 solve the basic issues. Although I always fully expected an upgrade to the camera would not be free, I don't think 20,000 bucks is a fair upgrade price. If the Red One begins shipping with the new sensor that has image improvements, I would gladly pay a couple thousand for the sensor and keep my 4k red one....20,000 bucks... no.

 

[Ernesto Lomeli]

This is unbelievable,
I think alot of you dont understand what has been accomplished,
Be appreciative of what you have,
and stop low balling, this is why the industry as a below the line person is
so bad.

this mentality of trying to get more then you deserve and yet paying very little.


And could we please stop asking about matt boxes at Viewfactor's booth.

Out of all the things they have accomplished ... these amazing feats of engineering and all some people want to know is "where is the mattbox"

please learn your history, and see that we are in such an amazing time, and it seems people have forgotten where we were just a few years ago.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

kaplooee. We appreciate just fine what Jim has done, that's why we bought the camera. If you had one you would want it to be all that it can be, too......

 

[CJ Roy]

Any ideas on the cost to upgrade the Red One to 5k?

 

[Häakon]

Any ideas on the cost to upgrade the Red One to 5k?

From what I understood at the booth, the upgrade for RED ONE would be a 4K version of the Mysterium X sensor (better image quality), not a 5K upgrade (that is reserved for EPIC). I could be wrong, however... my guess is these things haven't even fully been decided yet. The new cameras aren't even due until 2009...

 

[John Godden]

If RED EPIC's new sensor is better than the current one (most probably), and if RED ONE cannot be upgraded with the new sensor down the line then I (and all the RED ONE owners) will be extremely dissapointed.

I still don't know what to expect so I'm on hold. But remember! We were explicitly PROMISED upgradability if new technological advances are being made in the future. We were explicitly told that we wouldn't have to buy a new body if a new, better sensor comes along.

MAKING OBSOLENCE OBSOLETE

Remember?

That's what we were promised. That's why I decided to go for the RED and put down a deposit, therefore helping out RED along its course (in my small way). I don't want to pay a large amount of money for EPIC to get the already promised upgradability for RED ONE. I already got that when I decided to trust Jim and go with their new phylosophy.

This is not criticism (since I don't know EPIC's price yet), just a reminder to everyone of what we were promised to hop aboard! EPIC sounds amazing, but I certainly hope RED ONE is not merely a beta product, only good for testing so a $40,000 improved camera comes along with a totally different market target (if at that price). I would honestly feel misled if EPIC's price is too high compared to RED.

Hopefully all my fears will be proved wrong.

Disappointed? ................... get used to it. There's a lot of it in life. :usd:

The man already said you can get yo money back if you want to upgrade. What more do you want?

gheesh!
JohnG

 

[Brian Reisdorf]

If we currently have two RED ONEs in house, and want to turn them both in for the $17500 credit towards the Epic, can we apply both of those credits to the same single Epic camera purchase?

I only ask because the Epic will effectively ruin the rental business of the RED ONE once Epics start showing up in town. Any major production wanting to shoot RED is going to go right to the Epic just based on size and weight alone (the extra $200-300 a day rate isn't going to matter to any decently funded job), let alone that it's higher res, better image, faster FPS, etc...There will effectively be no reason for rental houses to stock RED ONEs since (assuming of course) the workflow will be virtually the same. Houses with 5+ RED ONEs that have already spent $100,000+ on cameras and accessories and now have to spend DOUBLE just to update to Epics and stay competitive with houses who haven't taken delivery yet (who will now almost certainly cancelled and await the Epic).

You're effectively handicapping your early adopters who bought in early by forcing them to spend even more to stay competitive with anyone who hasn't taken delivery as of today.

It wouldn't be so bad if the Epic wasn't already better than the RED ONE in every way (and we don't even know full details yet), so congrats for sure on that....but the original question affects some of your biggest, most loyal early adopting customers, so I think it's worth asking again.

Yes I asked this in another thread but never got a straight answer before the thread was derailed horribly and sent to the complaint department...figured it was worth another shot since it's a legit concern.

 

[antiquaeuropa]

It is the shift in focus that is so disappointing today. 2/3" on Scarlet and the top camera is not the Red One. I think that the implicit promise about Red One "rendering obsolesce obsolete" was that Red was going to keep Red One at the top of the digital cinema game for many years to come. Of course, most everyone expected an upgrade to 6k or similar in the coming years, but it was supposed to be just a sensor upgrade. It seems clear that Red has lost some confidence in the modularity, upgradability, and design of the Red One. Otherwise, there would be no need to design a better camera to fix the problems of Red One. Remember Red freely set the price to $17.5; many expected $35k. I took Red's promise as meaning that Red One buyers were going to be kept as the state of the art (at a minimum within the Red world if not the world at large). Red was free to set the price of Red One at whatever level they choose such that it would be feasible to create a camera path that would continue to be state of the art for many years to come. Instead, the first design is going to be supplanted as state of the art after only a little over one year of full release-- pretty disappointing! :sad:

 

[Bing Bailey]

Red One will be able to get the sensor upgrade. the only difference will be 1k resolution. so RED ONE is still upgradable..... all is right with the world

 

[danbrazda]

Ummmm.... Jim........would you mind shutting everyone up with the answers we are all looking for? Remember Obsolescence obsolete?

 

[brandon herman]

It wouldn't be so bad if the Epic wasn't already better than the RED ONE in every way

um, it's "already" a prototype in a glass box. it's at least a year away from the time it starts to ship.

And don't some rental houses do OK renting some 65mm cams, 35mm cams, 16mm, and HDV equipment?

It's all in how you price it. If EPIC becomes your key rental cam at $1600 a day, then I'll gladly rent a RED ONE setup for $700 a day.

I understand your concerns, but they are clearly different cameras.

Let's remember that RED ONE is shooting feature films all over the world with top directors. On top of this, you WILL get a new sensor. So how can you be mad at that?

And even my computer is upgradeable and modular, but after a few years of swapping chips and adding RAM, it's time to move on. I imagine EPIC becomes the big guy for next year, for the super high end/IMAX/David Fincher crowd. RED ONE will get upgraded and continue to be the camera of choice for anyone shooting a feature for less than $10 million.

Then NAB 2010 will reveal the RED TWO, a vastly improved cam in the $17,500 range. And back and forth every few years....

Meanwhile, my broke butt will be rockin' out with the Scarlet.

 

[Medavoym]

It seems that un upgrade WILL be available for Red One down the road...

In that case - as I have clearly specified in my first post - no one will be dissapointed, including myself. EPIC is again a great camera and I do see the need for it. What I wouldn't like to see is being stuck with the current Mysterium chip at 9-10 stops of DR and other significant improvements stalled or slowed down while EPIC flies to the sky.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

What I find so amazing is that people are upset. 24 hours ago, Red One was crazy amazing in people's minds, now because there are other Red products, it suddenly becomes not ok? Kind of interesting, as far as I can tell, my Red One still shoots what it was capable of shooting yesterday.

 

[Brian Reisdorf]

It's all in how you price it. If EPIC becomes your key rental cam at $1600 a day, then I'll gladly rent a RED ONE setup for $700 a day.

I understand your concerns, but they are clearly different cameras.

That's kind of the problem, they're really not that different based on what was specced out today, especially if the RED ONE gets a sensor upgrade. If things change dramatically and the EPIC gets all kinds of crazy features, then yeah, the EPIC will rent for a lot more than the RED ONE. Otherwise you're comparing two cameras that both shoot 4k (how many clients are going to back out of using a RED ONE because it doesn't shoot 5k? None), and one that shoots 4k 24fps (possibly more if they upgrade the sensor) and one that (speculatively) shoots 100fps. That's currently the only appreciable difference in capablity for the EPIC, faster 4k framerate. Basically, you're probably not going to see a $900 price difference between the RED and the EPIC. The EPIC will get priced just slightly above the RED ONE market because of the framerate and the smaller size/weight unless we find out some kind of massive EPIC advantage. If that's the case, then your RED ONE is going to be second fiddle pretty much every time if the producer can get a smaller, lighter, "better" camera for a hundred or so extra a day.

Again, this is based on what we saw today and what was listed as features of the EPIC vs what's available on the RED ONE. I'm ALL for the EPIC, I love my RED ONE, and RED as a company has done nothing but good things for me and my company....So it's just frustrating that it really feels like Red made a competitor to their own camera rather than a next tier model.

 

[Don King]

We'll have a problem when they'll start to protect their high end.

 

[Ace]

And on that note, its time to put this thread to bed. This is going in circles.