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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are People really using COLOR to grade their DPX Files?

a total of 3813$ the rest is our labor… If it was print on our Arri laser on 2242 internegative the cost would be about 80% more… That’s it.

And the cost of the film recorder. And its support and maintenance. And the cost of your building, the power to run it, your employees, shipping costs, Internet costs, infrastructure, etc, etc, etc. The cost of the materials is only the starting point. Your true cost of manufacture must take into account a lot of things you haven't mentioned. The only way what you're saying seems to make sense to me is if one is running essentially a one man operation that is located in the residence of the owner. Perhaps that is the case, perhaps not. I just think that the cost of the equipment needed by your client has little to nothing to do with with your own costs of running your business. The fact that they can get their equipment cheap doesn't mean you can too, and it doesn't mean that you have to severely discount what you have to offer. The only way that becomes sensible is if you can buy a reliable film recorder for as little as they pay for their Mac computer and Final Cut. And we both know that's not the case. As long as a film recorder costs what it does (and an ArriLaser is in the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars, with required maintenance support running close to $50K a year), the cost of services associated with it has absolutely nothing to do with what your clients may or may not be doing. It has to do with your real costs and what you can and must charge to make a fair profit on them.

BTW, the primary differences between camera negative and intermediate stocks are durability (as you've mentioned), and grain (intermediate stocks are practically grainless, and as a result are very, very slow, requiring more light for proper exposure). There are those (myself among them) who feel that camera stocks are in some ways more desirable for material that originated on a digital camera because they add a bit of film texture, while the intermediate stocks tend to give a "cleaner" result. Of course, that really depends on what the client prefers.
 
can we open another thread and discuss there:
How much should a filmoutput cost? a business model for the 21st century.

lets get back to the Topic

1.Did someone really used COLOR for Filmoutput?
2. Your discussion about calibrating monitors and their quality still belongs into this thread.

thanks
 
I too would like to know about people's experience using LUTs from, say, Kodak Display Manager and Rising Sun Research with Apple Color. And what monitor would be decent enough without breaking the bank. (If you go with LCD, how about a Cinetal, for example?)

Also, it seems to me the one light correction going from the R3Ds to outputting your DPXs could be really essential to end up with a good DPX for color grading. And is a DPX really the best option? Can anyone give opinions on the best encode from the R3Ds in RedCine (assuming you're not using Scratch, in other words) if you're doing a film out?

On a side note, wouldn't it be nice to have a specific "Film Out Workflow" forum? Even with the 4K we're all mixed up in here.

Nayeli
 
I second the film out forum.

Can Color use Kodak Display Manager LUTs?
 
Mmost about the cost of ownership of the film recorders, yes you are right its top dollar, and we have heavily invested the last three years… As for our margin and or running costs, this is our problem, the client have nothing to do with the economies of scale that we done to achieve such a competitive result. At the end the film recorder is just a box, that you put film and data and its doing a job, it’s very simple as long as, the know how around it is in a high level, that's relating to service and color management wise. The quality is the same if it’s printed to us or to Duart… it’s the same machines and the same process. It just happens that we live in Greece…

As for your comment on internegative I agree, the digitally oriented images should be recorded on camera negative it gives a more organic look to them.

To the original question, does Color being used for filmouts?

Yes and with great success, I know more than 90 films that has being graded on Color and with DPX scanned material. Color’s only problem is the I/O, how you going to put in material and how you going to get it out, after the rendering. All the bugs are on these two processes. By using Glue tools and same very simple steps you can workaround these bugs and finish a project. I thing same day Apple (or Andrew) will fix these stupid bugs or someone that builds an external software like Crimson will fix the work flow. The grading session is flowless…

As for the monitoring question, which you guys are constantly asking…

As soon as you understand, monitoring is 100% related to the color management of the chain: Display LUT>Film emulsion>Film recorder LUT>Film developing stability>Positive film emulsion >Projection accuracy, you will save money big time!

If you got just the grading in house, you can't control almost nothing from that chain, regardless of the software that you using. You need a very very close collaboration (almost a love affair) with a Lab to achieve it.

Someone said on the Color forum once, that film out accuracy is “depending on the bath temperature, titration accuracy, phase of the moon, neap tide, swinging a chicken counter-clockwise instead of the other way around”…

You know guys, I’m still laughing with that, because he is right about that, it’s very hard to get WYSIWYG for film out, unless you can control all the above chain. And to do that you have to have, in house, a film recorder…

My client in L.A. Keith Collea had put a 6000$ down payment for an eCinema monitor… he end up to buy a Sony FW900 used for 299$, we calibrate it, send him a LUT, he done his full cycle test, project it on a theatre and was astonished from the result…

So guys if you don’t want me to tell you bullshit, you have to understand that filmout can be done accurately only with a carefully created 3DLUT SPECIFIC to your display device (current state), or go to a DI house that can guarantee the result (why do you thing they asking the money, for joke? No it’s called “know how”) …

So stop asking what monitor or what projector, there are good display devices that can get close to the film projection but that’s the70% of the road, the rest is 3DLUT and full control of the chain. (or a love affair with a lab… which for the reasons mmost has stated I don’t thing that it will be easy…)

As for the specific Film out thread I thing it’s a very good idea.
 
No, Color does not accept Kodak display manager LUT’s, for that you need the KDM production package that’s on 100K$ range…

Also all these small software’s, that are trying to emulate a proper film projection environment are taking for granted a series of assumptions (film emulsion, film development, state of the film recorder etc.) so the reality of a Lab has a difference of 30% at least which is enough to have a green sky instead of blue or to crash blacks and many more similar problems.

These software packages are for a DoP to play around with his footage and not for serious Color grading.

As for the Cinespace, I have to repeat you can get close, up to 85% but that could be just by luck.

IF YOU DON’T CONTROL THE FULL CHAIN YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ACURATE FILM OUT.-

Sorry for the tone but that’s the reality.

DPX in log should be more than enough to grade, since all the movies that are out there, and wining Oscars, have being done in that way (from DPX files). The question is, can Redcine produce a high quality linear to log conversion in order to accurately map the 12bits linear to 10 bits Log?

I thing yes, although I don’t have enough experience with RedCine.

PS. Sorry for my English but it’s not my native language…
 
Hi Evangalos,
So as I understand it, using the Lasergraphics you could produce 100
minutes (5 reels) of 5201 and answer print for approx $25-30K U.S. using
FCP/COLOR, Gluetools, Crimson, Recine and a Sony RGB Computer monitor or JVC Projector
calibrated with your 3DLUT for client (in house) color grading of DPX RED originated material.
Have I missed anything and is this about the right price mentioned above?
Looking forward to seeing how all this works in the future.
Mezmo
 
Memzo, that’s right, we are trying to fix some local problems with the VAT tax, if we make it, then it will be less than 25K$... there is also euro/dollar that is keep rising...

That does not include optical for sound, which is preferred to be done locally but if you still have a problem to do it, then we can also provide it.

The LUT’s will be per session and as many times are needed.

Of coarse a projector with a proper room would be better but this is up to the individual budged…
 
Hi Evangelos,
Yes, Sound Neg and Release Printing done in my local Lab.
What JVC projector have you been working with?
And make that 3 for a Film-out forum on Reduser.
Mezmo
 
Mezmo

The JVC DLA-HD100 is the one, with same tweaking it can work very well.
So you want to try it out? If so send me an email of list with your details to get in touch with you.

Email is lakis@motionfx.gr

If it’s confirmed another three to go for the free full cycle film out test with RED footage… The participations should be listed on that thread to have a first come first served.
 
Hi Evangelos,
Thanks for the offer,I'm moving facilities at the moment. When I get
relocated and setup i'll email you.
Have your details noted.
Mezmo
 
Hey Evangelos,

count me in too. just emailed you.

paul
 
Paul and Tonaci have confirmed with emails the participation to the free ride for Apple Color film out.

Mezmo you haven’t send me an email to confirm your participation …

RED users, there is one more seat for the free ride to Apple Color film out (or two if mezmo does not confirm).

The offer is, free consulting for Apple Color to set up your display device for film grade with custom LUT’s including one minute film recording developing and answer print. With the obligation to post a thread in the forum about the experience with our film out process.
 
I'm late to this party (actually I've been lurking here for months and I think this is my first post in this forum).

Evangelos is right that you have to account for everything in the chain to properly color manage and get great film outs, and we do (I'll put our color science up against just about anyone). Mike Most is right that just because Color is cheap (although it was $25K for me when we invested a few years ago), the rest of a proper DI setup is still expensive (our SAN, projector, construction and TALENT are all much more expensive). In fact, whether we invest in Lustre or Color or whatever, it is overall merely a fractional change in costs ammortized over time when you factor everything in.

Mike is also right about the stability of the digital cinema projectors. At first we calibrated every few days, then every week, then once a month. Now we calibrate every three months unless we notice something (we are so familiar with the projector I am sure I'd notice anything significant) because it is just a waste of time. It takes about six hours for our color profile test to run, so it's a good thing we don't have to do it all the time. But we have a quick 20 minute confidence test that will simply verify that things are working right, and we do that once a week.

We use Color for our DI work because I prefer it and we've already spent a lot of time and money developing our own in-house tools to work around many of its shortcomings, so it is not an off-the-shelf configuration. Still, I keep up on all the systems and am watching with interest to see what happens at NAB, as we consider if we'll switch horses. We work on a digital cinema projector on a 15-ft. screen, have an entirely 3D color-managed pipeline that accounts for colorspace, projector, chosen film stock, and the particular Arri Laser recorder we are outputting on.

I've personally worked on over 30 features with FinalTouch/Color, and the clients have been extremely happy with the filmouts. I myself have been surprised how darn close they match to the digital projection since we've come to really master the color science. It is never perfect, but barring a butterfly split-screen test, it'd be hard to say what's wrong with it.

Anyway, it was asked if anyone is actually using Color in a DPX workflow and doing filmouts, and we can definitely say YES, that is all we do. We're supporting three RED features right now throughout production, editorial and DI. We're in LA to help.
 
there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

I know I'm jumping in late here, but better late than never? 90% of the confusion earlier in this thread is due to people incorrectly using the term "linear" to describe gamma-encoded images (such as Rec709).

Linear is linear. Gamma 1.0. Anything else is not linear. Number 2 above should be "Gamma encoded," pure and simple.

Sometimes people refer to gamma-encoded images as "perceptually linear," but that term should really only be applied to log images. I'm trying to use that term less since it only adds to the confusion.

Graeme N. is a proponent of never saying simply "linear" but always going the extra step of saying "linear light" so that folks don't confuse proper use of the term "linear" with the historically bogus use of it to describe the very non-linear spaces of video. Threads like this help demonstrate why.

-Stu
 
using the term "linear" to describe gamma-encoded images (such as Rec709).

Linear is linear. Gamma 1.0. Anything else is not linear. Nubmer 3 above should be "Gamma encoded," pure and simple.
-Stu
Thanks for chiming in Stu, I'm still trying to find time to read your blog or whatever you want to call it. Question for you though. So what I export from Redcine in REC709 < DPX is gamma-encoded? There is so much new stuff to learn. All very exciting, but also overwhelming.
 
can we open another thread and discuss there:
How much should a filmoutput cost? a business model for the 21st century.

lets get back to the Topic

1.Did someone really used COLOR for Filmoutput?
2. Your discussion about calibrating monitors and their quality still belongs into this thread.

thanks

In Norway, many films are now graded in COLOR after the last year.

Gunleik
 
Yes, Rec709 is gamma-encoded. It's not a "pure" gamma transfer function, but there's no better term.

Anything that "looks right" on your monitor without a LUT is gamma encoded.

-Stu
 
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