Are People really using COLOR to grade their DPX Files?

[ilinx]

RAW is neither linear/video gamma corrected linear nor log (redlog/pdlog)
Its Data...

There is currently only one system that can CC the Red RAW files in with a 2k RT debayer...Scratch.

the CC with dpx log files is a regular process...not REd specific.

The Only question is :has COLOR the proper ability to work with 3d LUTs and if so which ones?

I thought RAW was linear (gamma 1.0).

But yes, that's my questions, really. If you don't use Scratch, and color correct the DPX log files as you would with a regular DI, what does one do regarding LUTs?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

you have calibrated monitors.
then you apply a LUT so you can see what you are grading on your Monitor...if you dont have a LUT your stuff will look really bright.

Then you disable the LUT and the filmout will be done.
If you want that your DVD looks the same as your Filmoutput you bake in the LUT.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

 

[ilinx]

you have calibrated monitors.
then you apply a LUT so you can see what you are grading on your Monitor...if you dont have a LUT your stuff will look really bright.

Then you disable the LUT and the filmout will be done.
If you want that your DVD looks the same as your Filmoutput you bake in the LUT.

Right...the normal DI workflow. Maybe we're talking in circles here. The thing is, if you have DPX files that were generated from RED RAW files, and grade them in Color, either at some point before or some point after you're going to have to apply a LUT. It seems like if people don't follow the Scratch route, they follow a typical video to film route. But I'm wondering if there is a third option. And if that option is Color, how are LUTs handled? Which leads to the opening question, but with an addition:

Are people really using COLOR to grade their DPX files for film out?

 

[Zach Hilton]

A question for Strongbad_2Z , in Color do you set your color space in the settings 2 tab to linear (0 black - 1023 white ) or video ( 64 black - 940 white )? when you are grading your rec709 dpx's ?
Thanks



www.belladonnathemovie.com

As of now, we've set it to Linear, and no problems. Footage looks beautiful.

 

[Zach Hilton]

are you talking about linear or gamma corrected linear?

I wish I knew what we were doing (linear or gamma corrected linear). Color space is still somewhat of a pandora's box for me. The only thing that I know is that we export DPX's from redcine in REC709, then in Color, override the color space to Linear and from then on, everything looks amazing.

 

[ilinx]

there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

Ah... So is that what you meant when you said that RAW is not linear? To distinguish it from gamma corrected linear?

I feel compelled to read much more about this.... But let me see if I have it right, since I've been using the term "linear" to describe both 2 & 3. From the RAW file, which is linear (gamma 1.0), you can output debayered and gamma-corrected linear images. This gamma-corrected linear is still a different color space (or different color spaces if they are sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc.) than the log color space, and still requires conversion.

In the example given in the link, I still think "clipped LOG Marcie" looks really washed out. I don't think it's just a question of headroom, but also of how the values are distributed. Although the gamma corrected linear curve is not a complete straight line, it's quite different from the log curve. I mean, otherwise we wouldn't need LUTs, right?

I assume Scratch can take a RAW file and output a DPX file while baking in a LUT? But what happens if you take a RAW file and output a DPK using RedCine, and THEN bake in a LUT? Or...what does RedCine do exactly in creating a DPX? Is it just converting from a linear (gamma 1.0) color space to a gamma-corrected color space?

 

[ilinx]

I wish I knew what we were doing (linear or gamma corrected linear). Color space is still somewhat of a pandora's box for me. The only thing that I know is that we export DPX's from redcine in REC709, then in Color, override the color space to Linear and from then on, everything looks amazing.

OK...that's weird. Rec709 is a type of gamma-corrected linear. Hmmm... What happens if you set it to video gamma? And these settings...in addition to having top and bottom limits, do they also specify the curve distribution? And if so, do they just assume a standard 2.2 gamma?

I really wish I knew more about this.

Look at this, for example:

http://www.13thmonkey.org/~boris/gammacorrection/

Oof.

 

[ilinx]

Hmm...though I guess what you do, Strongbad, is the same thing they recommend in the Cinespace link that Kaya posted.

On top of everything, there are the secret things software does without telling you, just to drive you mad.

 

[Egil1966]

DPX to yuv-colorspace

DPX to yuv-colorspace

I think AJA provides a colorspace conversion tool that manages you to convert your DPX-files to the right component colorspace if you want to output it for broadcast and not film.
I tested it out just briefly this week and it seemed OK, but I will look into it closer this monday.:w00t:

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Ah... So is that what you meant when you said that RAW is not linear? To distinguish it from gamma corrected linear?

no RAW is nothing...you have to translate/develop it to a Colorspace of your choice.


Play with the COLOR button in REDCINE....here is Graemes explanation:
Color Off does not give a linear light image. It gives a no matrix and basic gamma curve decode.


If you export a linear file (gamma 1.0) it will slightly look different then watchning the same footage in Redcine with Color off.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think AJA provides a colorspace conversion tool that manages you to convert your DPX-files to the right component colorspace if you want to output it for broadcast and not film.
I tested it out just briefly this week and it seemed OK, but I will look into it closer this monday.:w00t:

We are not talking about RGB vs YUV ( YCbCr), we are talking about different gammas.

What we discuss is dpx RGB log or dpx RGB rec709 or dpx RGB lin...and if there is a proper support of 3d LUTs in COLOR.and if so, which one to use. (luther/Cinespace/KodakLookManager etc.)

after we covered this...it is interesting to talk about RGB vs. YUV



------
if something of my statements is not correct....correct me

 

[ilinx]

no RAW is nothing...you have to translate/develop it to a Colorspace of your choice.

I can't quite get my head around that. I mean, it has to have some sort of color space. Each luminosity has to be recorded as a value. And if it's like still camera RAW formats, that's linear. Meaning that there's an exact correlation between the amount of photons going through the lens and the value that gets recorded.

I remembered where I read this. An article by Bruce Fraser, which is about still cameras, but I think would apply?

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

As a user of Color ex ”Final Touch” I have to clear up few things…

Unfortunately is not so simple to do a film out even if you buy the best colour management system, because it’s a very complicated task and evolves so many steps in the chain which I thing its for another forum...

For us it took two years of efforts to reach the point to have just +/- 1 printer light error at the film out.

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

I don’t won’t to repeat once more that grading in REC 709 on a broadcast monitor it’s not by any means accurate for film out, since they have a different white point, light level, and color saturation… Who ever says that grade in a broadcast monitor and then we gone fix it with a magical LUT… don’t expect to see on the screen what you saw on your monitor!

I thing the best way for RED is Log, but i'm not certain about that, in a few weeks we will have a real project with RED footage for a test film out. Typically I would select Log wherever is available, but I have a hunch that RED is a Linear beast.

The last six months we were beta testing a new innovative service that we are offering to Color users that will allow them to be able to do accurate film outs with WYSIWYG preview on their display devices (monitor or projector). The service includes 18 hours a day consulting until they ready to do a film out plus the actual film recording.

We just finished, three weeks ago, the beta test of the process with two new studios. The one was in Los Angeles area end we consult them on how to setup a proper Color suite for film out. They Color Grade a feature called “The gene generation” http://www.genegeneration.com shoot on Panavised Cinealta F900.

I was there with them, with the help of Skype and I was assisting them on every step. When there was a problem with Color they either call me or SMS and I was there… I was providing to them custom LUT’s every two days until they finished the movie. Something like a teleworking 2K DI consultant.

The same with Contact Studios in New York http://www.contactstudios.com, with them we finished a short movie 28 min long “Hollow Tree”, that was shoot on 3perf film 35mm scanned, conformed, Color graded in NY and film recorded here in Greece in our facility send back the developed negative with an answer print, and it was exactly as it was being seen on the JVC projector of the NY Color suite! Other labs requested from the producer for that job (just for color grade and film recording) 60K$ and the total with us was something like 7K$ plus the one off consulting fee 2Keuros (it’s only for the first time) a total of 10K$ and my client took something like 15K$ for Color grading so a total of 26K$...

Apple Color combined with our know how (the secret sauce as JP Owens says in Creative Cow Color forum) can easily trash big guys.

Our new web site with all these sample footages and the client’s testimonials will be up in couple of weeks.

How it works: Since beta period has ended, now the consulting is a one off paid service. We transfer to your company our know how for film out color management and DI 2K using Apple Color.

Except of the consulting package, the client has to buy (if he doesn't allready have them) a spectrophotometer (1100$) and a 24’’ CRT computer monitor (700$..) or a JVC projector. We are sending free of charge a software kit for custom display profiling.

Then we will setup the clients system, and teach him, how to calibrate his display device and how to profile it. The next step is to complete a full cycle test, he is selecting a one minute timeline, he color grading it as he wish, using our custom LUT for your session, you upload it on our FTP site and we film record it to our Lasergraphics film recorder or to Arri laser. We developing it, we print an answer print and we sending back the negative along with the answer print. The client going to his local lab project the test, he is evaluating the results and he is ready. He can also print an answer print from the negative in his local lab and compare it with our answer print to see how easy is then to do the copies locally. If he is not happy we return back the consulting fee.

It’s understood that the whole process is obligatory to record your films in our facility otherwise we can’t have a WYSIWYG for film out, because we take care the difficult part of the process which are the film recorder and the developing lab..

The costs of film recording are very competitive.

We can use our Lasergraphics for a camera negative film recording or our Arri Laser for internegative recording. Every time that a client going to have a project we will send him the LUTs free of charge. The consulting fee is only paid once. After that the LUTs are for free as long as you recording your films to us.

I’m at your disposal for any questions that you may have, at lakis@motionfx.gr

Unfortunately this service is not available for Greece, Cyprus, Balkans, Italy, and Turkey we don't won’t to have so immediate competition in our territory... Sorry guys…

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I can't quite get my head around that. I mean, it has to have some sort of color space. Each luminosity has to be recorded as a value. And if it's like still camera RAW formats, that's linear. Meaning that there's an exact correlation between the amount of photons going through the lens and the value that gets recorded.

I remembered where I read this. An article by Bruce Fraser, which is about still cameras, but I think would apply?

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

i see...he means its linear...so maybe i mix the things

 

[Mike Papadopoulos]

As a user of Color ex ”Final Touch” a have to clear up few things…

Unfortunately is not so simple to do a film out even if you buy the best colour management system, because it’s a very complicated task and evolves so many steps in the chain which I thing its for another forum...

For us it took two years of efforts to reach the point to have just +/- 1 printer light error at the film out.

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

I don’t won’t to repeat once more that grading in REC 709 on a broadcast monitor it’s not by any means accurate for film out, since they have a different white point, light level, and color saturation… Who ever says that grade in a broadcast monitor and then we gone fix it with a magical LUT… don’t expect to see on the screen what you saw on your monitor!

I thing the best way for RED is Log, but not certain about that, in a few weeks we will have a real project with RED footage for a test film out. Typically I would select Log wherever is available but I have a hunch that RED is a Linear beast.

The last six months we were beta testing a new innovative service that we are offering to Color users that will allow them to be able to do accurate film outs with WYSIWYG preview on their display devices (monitor or projector). The service includes 18 hours a day consulting until they ready to do a film out plus the actual film recording.

We just finished, three weeks ago, the beta test of the process with two new studios. The one was in Los Angeles area end we consult them on how to setup a proper Color suite for film out. They Color Grade a feature called “The gene generation” http://www.genegeneration.com shoot on Panavised Cinealta F900.

I was there with them, with the help of Skype and I was assisting them on every step. When there was a problem with Color they either call me or SMS and I was there… I was providing to them custom LUT’s every two days until they finished the movie. Something likes a teleworking 2K DI consultant.

The same with Contact Studios in New York http://www.contactstudios.com, with them we finished a short movie 28 min long “Hollow Tree”, that was shoot on 3perf film 35mm scanned, conformed, Color graded in NY and film recorded here in Greece in our facility send back the developed negative with an answer print, and it was exactly as it was being seen on the JVC projector of the NY Color suite! The guys from Duart requested from the producer for that job (just for color grade and film recording) 60K$ and the total with us was something like 7K$ plus the one off consulting fee 2Keuros (it’s only for the first time) a total of 10K$ and my client took something like 15K$ for Color grading so a total of 26K$...

Apple Color combined with our know how (the secret sauce as JP Owens says in Creative Cow Color forum) can easily trash big guys like Fotokem, Duart and others.

Our new web site with all these sample footages and the client’s testimonials will be up in couple of weeks.

How it works: Since beta period has ended, now the consulting is a one off paid service. We transfer to your company our know how for film out color management and DI 2K using Apple Color.

Except of the consulting package, the client has to buy a spectrophotometer and a 24’’ CRT monitor or a JVC projector. We are sending free of charge a software kit for custom display profiling.

Then we will setup the clients system, and teach him, how to calibrate his display device and how to profile it. The next step is to complete a full cycle test, he is selecting a one minute timeline, he color grading it as he wish, using our custom LUT for your session, you upload it on our FTP site and we film record it to our Lasergraphics film recorder or to our Arri laser. We developing it, we print an answer print and we sending back the negative along with the answer print. The client going to his local lab project the test, he is evaluating the results and he is ready. He can also print an answer print from the negative in his local lab and compare it with our answer print to see how easy is then to do the copies locally. If you are not happy we returning back the consulting fee.

It’s understood that the whole process is obligatory to record your films in our facility otherwise we can’t have a WYSIWYG for film out, because we take care the difficult part of the process which are the film recorder and the developing lab..

The costs of film recording are very competitive.

We can use our Lasergraphics for a camera negative film recording or our Arri Laser for internegative recording. Every time that a client going to have a project we will send him the LUTs free of charge. The consulting fee is only paid once. After that the LUTs are for free as long as you recording your films to us.

I’m at your disposal for any questions that you may have, at lakis@motionfx.gr

Interested to see your website when it goes online. By the way happy late independence day, although its being celebrated today in the states.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mike you meant our independence day… aren’t you a Greek American?

We thing to offer a free consulting for four clients with RED projects with only obligation to post there experience with our service in the RED user forum. The offer will include a 1 minute full cycle test for free. That’s includes negative recording, and answer print. Any opinions?

 

[M Most]

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

The part about LUTs being "good" meaning they're accurate to the display device I agree with. However, as far as "lifetime," what you say might be true with monitors and prosumer projectors, but it is absolutely untrue with proper digital cinema equipment. DLP Cinema projectors are amazingly stable beasts, with their output remaining almost completely constant over months and months of use. I recently measured our NEC iS8-2K projector, and found it to be within .002 on almost every measurement when compared to the first calibration - which was done almost 2 years ago. That certainly doesn't demand LUTs that get rebuilt every few days, and in fact, we're using the same LUT I built almost 6 months ago because quite frankly, it's just as accurate as it was then (we do check runs quite regularly). Of course, part of the difference here is that we're calibrated to Digital Cinema standards, and the projector is set up to represent the reference projector values as they are presented in the DCI specification, much as a properly set up CRT is designed to properly represent HD video color space. Profiling is necessary when a device must emulate another device, but when the device is set up to properly display the required standard, the primary purpose of a LUT is to get that display to properly represent something else - like a film print, for instance. Given a stable projector, and a properly measured print profile, there is no great magic to proper print preview.

What I don't quite understand is why you would be willing to do a film recording to intermediate stock and an answer print for the client on a 30 minute piece for only $7000 when the stock alone (intermediate and print) costs almost $5000, not to mention at least $700 in lab charges for the two passes - and that's assuming you don't need to make a second print. I don't care what color correction software is being used, a business needs to make a profit in order to survive. Giving things away is rarely a good way to ensure long term survival. The facilities you mentioned (FotoKem and DuArt) are not exactly known as the higher priced vendors. They charge a fair price for the services they offer and the products they create. And, by the way, they've both managed to stay in business for a very long time. They are clearly doing something right.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

mmost you are definitly an expert...

and very high quality (skill,experience,knowledge,hardware) costs something no question...

but 5000 USD for 30 min(stocks) is not cheap (also not quite expensive)...

maybe its a local thing, but here it is 20%-30% cheaper...

i know feature filmoutputs were made for less then 20 k USD...with quality involved..and they live really good...

he has an attractive price point i have to admit.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mmost.

The people that’s using Color as grading software is using very cost effective equipment to reach their goal. So a DCI compliant beast like the NEC projector, that’s being stated in your post, is by no means a “cost effective display” when compared to an FW900 Sony CRT monitor that can be bought for 500$ Grade A refurbished. For the people that can buy a projector such NEC is (that rents in the range of 6K$ per week!), it’s not a problem to buy Lustre or a Scratch workstation with a True light color management…

The achievement is to be able to do really professional color grading for film out with a Mac Pro an FCS2 studio, Glue tools and Crimson, a total cost of less than 12K$...

As for the 7K$ for the film out of the “Hollow tree”. The film out went through Lasergraphics Producer in 5201 Vision 2 Kodak camera negative. The film needed was 3 rolls of 1000ft that are selling in Greece for 739$ (which is expensive in US is selling 550$ Kodak pricelist) each, a total of 2213$, plus 1600$ for developing and answer print on 2393 Kodak Premier in the Kodak Cinelabs Greece (that are honored with the Image-Care Kodak logo) a total of 3813$ the rest is our labor… If it was print on our Arri laser on 2242 internegative the cost would be about 80% more… That’s it.

And in my personal experience printing on camera negative instead of internegative it has almost nothing to do with the quality of the result it just that camera negative can print 20 copies and internegative more than 200… Actually I can grade a piece on 5201 and another on 2242 and on projection you can’t see the difference…

I don’t thing that we give away our work. I just thing that Color will “democratize” color grading as RED has done the same on cameras…

email: lakis@motionfx.gr