Are People really using COLOR to grade their DPX Files?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

to everyone out there using COLOR for CC...

Is someone really working with COLOR?

My experience so far is that with FCS2 you can do everything with ease for an HD/SD finish.

But using COLOR for a dpx sequence for filmoutput?

 

[Clark Dunbar]

We use COLOR for a lot of fine tuning - much more control and you have all the secondary channels that give a very expanded control. But yes, for simple grading - the 3-way color corrector in FCP works well. We work in COLOR with both with the prorez right out of the timeline and sending to COLOR, we also import the dpx sequences directly into COLOR for correction - depends on the shot.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

we also import the dpx sequences directly into COLOR for correction - depends on the shot.

how do you manage colorspaces?
i mean if you grade dpx log sequences?

 

[Zach Hilton]

In my opinion, anything that you want to look fabulous, sexy, great, excellent, and any other adjectives you want to throw in there, you'll definitely want to do dpx > color. From doing comparisons on Prores, uncombressed 8 and 10 bit exports, vs. DPX, DPX is the proud winner, and by a long shot. The highlights hold up a heck of a lot better, the blacks and shadows look a lot better, and you can really push the footage to look like anything you want. We have produced almost a dozen commercials (and growing fast) on our Red and others, and we've done DPX < color for final color of the locked spot, and it looks absolutely amazing. I wouldn't suggest anything less. As for color space issues, Graeme mentioned that you just set your white balance, make sure nothing clips (looking at the histogram), and export in REC709 and you essentially capture all the available information that was shot. Everything I've seen has shown this to be true. In color though, you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots. But in my opinion, that time is well spent. Red footage looks absolutely amazing. And colored red footage looks even better.

 

[Clark Dunbar]

agree - dpx/COLOR offers the best CC for a small system setup - with great control. Yes a bit of extra time, but well worth the efforts!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

As for color space issues, Graeme mentioned that you just set your white balance, make sure nothing clips (looking at the histogram), and export in REC709 and you essentially capture all the available information that was shot. Everything I've seen has shown this to be true. In color though, you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots. But in my opinion, that time is well spent. Red footage looks absolutely amazing. And colored red footage looks even better.

couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

2.
What do you mean exactly with.....
you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots.....

Can you break it down for me?


------------------------------------------------
i want that somebody prove me wrong.

but for a proper filmoutput you`ll need at least

10bit RGB log DPX files....
calibrated monitors
working 3D LUTs
handling of Titles/VFX

and i dont see how COLOR is able to give this things.

 

[Tar]

Sorry (for my ignorance) guys...

what's DPX?

 

[mtseng]

Sorry (for my ignorance) guys...

what's DPX?

DPX is a file format that filmscanners uses when scan film
It´s have high quantity in information. A single frame from RED 4k
is about 30 MB.
Has a lot of color information and highlights and shadow information, but
it´s impossible to a normal computer to edit 24fps*30MB
it will need a lot of raid disks.
The unique way to normal people is a solution with proxies like the crimsom workflow

Edit in a low codec> export the cuts to the redcine >export dpx from REDCINE
> import dpx in color > be a happy man

 

[Zach Hilton]

The unique way to normal people is a solution with proxies like the crimsom workflow

Edit in a low codec> export the cuts to the redcine >export dpx from REDCINE
> import dpx in color > be a happy man

Interesting choice of words. I do consider myself a "normal" person. We aren't a huge shop and we don't have endless supply of funds, so budget, time, etc... are huge concerns for us. That being said, a "normal" person like myself can feasibly and with relative "ease" (which is getting better as the months tick by) shoot, edit, and create a finished product in any form of end product. From SD up to 4k. If you actually think what the crap is going on, this is absolutely amazing! We edit off of DV50 files as a one-light exported from Redcine then roundtrip that through Redcine again for final DPX export and Color color correction. If you were to tell me that I would have access to these kind of professional tools, and yield really professional results at this point in my life, I don't know if I would believe you. But the fact of the matter is. I am, and we are. Which is the best thing about this whole project. "Normal" people who have been limited in some way or another in the past, now can have access to the same caliber of tools that "Ab-normal" people do. Quite the accomplishment for Jim, and every one else involved. And I mean EVERYONE!

 

[Zach Hilton]

couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

2.
What do you mean exactly with.....
you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots.....

Can you break it down for me?

K.Berlin, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), everything up until now that we've done has been for either SD or HD broadcast. So, REC709 fits our needs perfectly right now. So, I will be unable to answer your questions regarding a film out, and proper color space management. I would be interested in anyones thoughts on the matter, as I'm sure I'll have to cross that bridge sometime soon. As for the steps in color. You import your DPX sequence into Color (shows up as a clip if you exported it correctly), and when highlighting one clip you go to the "Settings 2" tab next to your timeline and click the "Override" button. You can then force it into a color space of your choosing. We've done linear here, and have had very good results. Once again, that's for broadcast. Hope that helps. Oh, and we usually color in 1080 and each DPX frame is 8MB. So not completely unmanageable.

 

[Scott Simmons]

From doing comparisons on Prores, uncombressed 8 and 10 bit exports, vs. DPX, DPX is the proud winner, and by a long shot. The highlights hold up a heck of a lot better, the blacks and shadows look a lot better, and you can really push the footage to look like anything you want.

I'll agree with this one 100%. We've done side by side test of ProRes HQ and DPX sequences of the same material, color grading on a DaVinci 2K and while the pro res does look nice you just get so much more latitude with DPX. In a "good, better, best" scenario, DPXs are definitely the best and worth the effort if you have anything other than the most back color correction.

 

[ilinx]

couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

My question exactly! I might be working on a project shot in 4K and graded in Color. Output will be 2K DPXs for 35mm film out. I really wonder how to handle the whole LUT question, and at what point to convert to 10 bit log DPXs for the filmout (before or after the color grading).

Is there ANYONE out there who has used Color for film out and has dealt with the log colorspace question? IMO, it seems if you're going to shoot with the Red for film out, you should follow a workflow that takes advantage of the RAW format's greater color grading room for work (if that makes sense), but I'm not sure what workflow that would be, or how Color can fit into it.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Is there ANYONE out there who has used Color for film out and has dealt with the log colorspace question?

People are really underestimating the Color Space issue...

What is better:
have log files and add a 3d Lut to view your stuff.

or have rec709 files and bake in a video gamma corrected linear to log pretransform then add a 3d LUT to view your stuff

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

here is something from the Cinespace Forum (dont know is this ok?)
cinespace.risingsunresearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=251&sid=6bf30ec5efdf95222e2131e98d0d9dba


CineCube (Cinespace 3d LUT creator)
We have had quite a few queries from users having trouble using cineSpace LUTs with Apple Color. Color seems to do some rather unintuative things when rendering and importing log and video (gamma corrected) images. Users are finding that images are being converted to log twice or not at all.

I have had a good play with Color and found the following 2 procedures work well for work flows where the final deliverable is a log image to be printed to film.


If images are in log format to start with ...

(1) Import images into Color
(2) Ensure that in the "Settings 2" tab in the bottom right of the Color GUI has the "Override Header Settings" checked and "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" is selected as the "Printing Density".
(3) In the "Prjct Settings" tab make sure that "Printing Density" is set to "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" and "Render File Type" is "DPX"
4) Import a DisplayLUT created with cineCube using a film target profile but without using a pretransform.
(5) Do the grade Smile
(6) Clear the DisplayLUT
(7) Render images


If images are in video (gamma corrected) format to start with ...

(1) Import images into Color
(2) Ensure that in the "Settings 2" tab in the bottom right of the Color GUI has the "Override Header Settings" checked and "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" is selected as the "Printing Density".
(3) In the "Prjct Settings" tab make sure that "Printing Density" is set to "Film (95 Black - 685 white : Logarithmic)" and "Render File Type" is "DPX"
(4) Import a DisplayLUT created with cineCube using a film target profile and also using the Apple_Color_Gamma22-to-Log pretransform.
(5) Do the grade Smile
(6) Clear the DisplayLUT
(7) Render images

If users have any other hints or suggestions on working with cineSpace LUTs in Apple Color please add them here.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the problem is in my opinion if you create your own 3D LUT things can get nasty really fast...

What about someone creating 3D Luts for the RED People and COLOR guys.
But your Lab should know what type of LUT you used.


What about Kodaks 3d LUTs, are they working with COLOR?...I know they work with Shake.

 

[Marcus Struzina]

in Color settings linear or video for rec709 ?

in Color settings linear or video for rec709 ?

A question for Strongbad_2Z , in Color do you set your color space in the settings 2 tab to linear (0 black - 1023 white ) or video ( 64 black - 940 white )? when you are grading your rec709 dpx's ?
Thanks



www.belladonnathemovie.com

 

[sparkhope]

I'm very interested in the answer to this question!!!! I believe the company Timecode Multimedia (has posted on RedUser) is a COLOR shop. Their website makes no mention of Scratch or any other grading tool. I don't know if they've graded for filmout but I hope they can join the conversation.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

We've done linear here, and have had very good results. Once again, that's for broadcast. Hope that helps. Oh, and we usually color in 1080 and each DPX frame is 8MB. So not completely unmanageable.

are you talking about linear or gamma corrected linear?

 

[ilinx]

People are really underestimating the Color Space issue...

What is better:
have log files and add a 3d Lut to view your stuff.

or have rec709 files and bake in a video gamma corrected linear to log LUT

Very good question. OK...let's say you shot 35mm. You would use method 1. Your film gets scanned as log, and in order to view it right on your monitor, you apply a LIN to LOG view LUT of some sort. Then you color correct, and when you record to film things look good.

Method 2 would be what you would normally do for video, I assume? (I don't have much experience in video to film out). You have a linear gamma file, and you use a conversion LUT so things look proper when you record to film. In other words, you need to convert from the linear file you have to something that will look good in the log-like medium of film.

However, here is where I have some doubts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but simply converting to a 10 bit log DPX file doesn't change your colorspace, does it? I mean, you are now in log, but I don't think a LUT has necessarily been applied. I guess it will depend on the software that you used for the conversion? And if you don't have a window at some point asking you what kind of negative or internegative you're going to use and other details, can you really expect a good result even if LUT is somehow automatically being applied?

If RedCine outputs DPX files that work well for someone who is outputting for HD/SD, I assume no LUT compensations have been made, or it would look terrible on a monitor. This tells me that in addition to converting to DPX and log, you have to actually do something about the color space. So what kind of LUT options does Color provide?

For this project I *might* work on, it sounds to me like they are planning on following a video to film type workflow, which I think would involve baking in a LIN to LOG LUT right before film recording. OK, maybe you'll get an OK result. But won't it have the limits of linear? Won't it be like recording with any other type of video in terms of color space?

Is there a better work flow to take advantage of the full flexibilities of the RAW files? And if so, can Color provide that workflow?

Even though the RAW files are linear, I'm not sure a regular video workflow is what is best. Even though it seems more circular, maybe it would be better to convert to a log color space, and then have to use a LOG to LIN view LUT on your monitor as you color grade?

What is usually done? OK...that may be a dumb answer in terms of Red as the "usually" is still in the process of being developed. But people who have used the camera for a film out.... where are you?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Very good question. OK...let's say you shot 35mm. You would use method 1. Your film gets scanned as log, and in order to view it right on your monitor, you apply a LIN to LOG view LUT of some sort. Then you color correct, and when you record to film things look good.

Method 2 would be what you would normally do for video, I assume? (I don't have much experience in video to film out). You have a linear gamma file, and you use a conversion LUT so things look proper when you record to film. In other words, you need to convert from the linear file you have to something that will look good in the log-like medium of film.

However, here is where I have some doubts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but simply converting to a 10 bit log DPX file doesn't change your colorspace, does it? I mean, you are now in log, but I don't think a LUT has necessarily been applied. I guess it will depend on the software that you used for the conversion? And if you don't have a window at some point asking you what kind of negative or internegative you're going to use and other details, can you really expect a good result even if LUT is somehow automatically being applied?

If RedCine outputs DPX files that work well for someone who is outputting for HD/SD, I assume no LUT compensations have been made, or it would look terrible on a monitor. This tells me that in addition to converting to DPX and log, you have to actually do something about the color space. So what kind of LUT options does Color provide?

For this project I *might* work on, it sounds to me like they are planning on following a video to film type workflow, which I think would involve baking in a LIN to LOG LUT right before film recording. OK, maybe you'll get an OK result. But won't it have the limits of linear? Won't it be like recording with any other type of video in terms of color space?

Is there a better work flow to take advantage of the full flexibilities of the RAW files? And if so, can Color provide that workflow?

Even though the RAW files are linear, I'm not sure a regular video workflow is what is best. Even though it seems more circular, maybe it would be better to convert to a log color space, and then have to use a LOG to LIN view LUT on your monitor as you color grade?

What is usually done? OK...that may be a dumb answer in terms of Red as the "usually" is still in the process of being developed. But people who have used the camera for a film out.... where are you?

RAW is neither linear/video gamma corrected linear nor log (redlog/pdlog)
Its Data...

There is currently only one system that can CC the Red RAW files in with a 2k RT debayer...Scratch.

the CC with dpx log files is a regular process...not REd specific.

The Only question is :has COLOR the proper ability to work with 3d LUTs and if so which ones?