Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDR using Red Footage

Andrew said:
... we need simple feature in the shutter menu that will allow us to set different shutter speed for odd frames and different for the even frames..
Click to expand...

I wouldn't expect Red to develop this, but this is a perfect example of the type of project that could be done by technically savvy Red geeks if firmware development is ever opened up.
 
It would definitely be cool to have a way to capture multiple exposures. But, even with just one RAW exposure from the RED you can do some really cool stuff with HDR / tone mapping. From enhancing fine detail to creating a stylized look that would be perfect for certain films.

Does anyone have a sequence of Tiffs that I can play with? Even if it's at 1k instead of 4k. It would be awesome to have a go at creating some full motion footage.

thanks,
ben
 
We already have shutter speed setup on the menu, how long it takes to add the second one like that, one day including testing?

Once the second shutter speed menu will be enabled, the first will set the shutter speed for the odd frames and the second menu will set the shutter speed of the even frames.

If both speeds are set the same value or the second shutter speed menu is disabled then all frames will have the same shutter speed.

I do not know about any movie camera having this feature, or having build in HDR support. RED will be the first camera supporting HDR in the world!!

Nice feature to have for NAB.

Not only 66 db dynamic range but HDR at 78 db WOOOOOW!!!

RED Team, take a look on this feature please.
 
Jamie Metzger said:
Concrete said:
By HDR you mean tone mapped.
Click to expand...

Tone mapping is another way to achieve the HDR look. HDR is made with raw images that are merged in photoshop (not sure how to do it with other programs).
Click to expand...

I think Concrete does have a point here as "collapsing" images is a way of doing tone-mapping and would result in a "psuedo-HDR" image. A true HDR image should be a singly acquired image. If you merge images then motion artifacting is not always easy to handle.

In addition, please remember that when you are boosting exposure/gain in software to *simulate* physical behavior, then you are not creating *new* information. Hence, any merging techniques working out of the same image (or set of images at the same exposure, etc.) but worked in software to create multiple exposures for tone-mapping shall always remain pseudo-HDR IMHO.
 
Very true it's totally "pseudo-HDR" but no matter what you call it it still looks cool and has lots of creative possibilities. If you really want to split hairs every image that you see labeled HDR is really "pseudo HDR" because our computer monitors can't display HDR images so we create these cool 16bit versions of our HDR images.

I just want to make some full motion HDR / tone mapped / pseudo HDR footage because it will look cool. It's also unique to RED you can't take any kind of compressed image and do this you need RAW and RED is the only motion camera that captures RAW.
 
hzero said:
If you really want to split hairs every image that you see labeled HDR is really "pseudo HDR" because our computer monitors can't display HDR images so we create these cool 16bit versions of our HDR images.
Click to expand...

HZero, I think the point is more than academic. Its not just a question of 16 bits and monitors. Let me give you an example. Graeme Nattress has vividly explained many times on this forum that how getting a 2K out of 4K helps (vs. direct 2K) because a *richer* 4K (more information in some sense) can be shoe-horned into 2K. Now consider the reverse going 2K->4K, we are creating information that did not exist, and just extrapolating missing samples using some techniques that determine how those extra samples should come out of *existing* samples -- no new information here.

Similarly, even if you "shoehorn" a true HDR into a lower resolution 16Bit tone-mapped file, you are creating less information out of a richer set of higher true information. Where as, when you change exposure/gain/etc. in software you are *not* creating new information and just simulating what should have been real physical behavior of an image acquired under such settings by just using the existing information (think again 2k->4K when no new information is created, just same information is extrapolated into a larger set).
 
"Similarly, even if you "shoehorn" a true HDR into a lower resolution 16Bit tone-mapped file, you are creating less information out of a richer set of higher true information."
It's not quite this simple. When you go from the HDR down to 16bit you're bringing some of that richer set of information with you. It allows you to create cool effects as you bring out detail or create an image with some kind of stylized effect.

Obviously with RED it's purely a hack because I'm not shooting multiple exposures as I would with my DSLR. I'm using one exposure and hacking it. But, what I think is cool is that it's possible to get close to the look of a true HDR image using just a single frame and some hacks. This isn't possible with other cameras because they don't shoot RAW. Which is why I would love to take it further and try to create some full motion footage using the same technique.

Right now this is just a total hack that Graeme Nattress definitely isn't a fan of. Which in my book is all of the more reason to try to do it. So what the hell why not screw around with it?
 
I like good HDR, and I don't like bad HDR :-) It's the implementation, not the concept that's the issue for me :-)

Graeme
 
I don't like the implementation either, :-) it's a lame hack, far from ideal, but it's fun and the results are the closest thing thus far to a HDR camera. So what's the harm in playing with it?

Hell, I'd love to play with even more with a sequence of Tiffs. I'm just trying to have fun with something cool that you created. Obviously I'd love to see a camera that can capture true HDR, but until then why not play around with this cool thing you made?

You know what would rock is a technicolor style camera with a prism that splits the image to 3 RED cameras and outputs live HDR. Tone mapping live on set, that would rock.
 
hzero said:
"Similarly, even if you "shoehorn" a true HDR into a lower resolution 16Bit tone-mapped file, you are creating less information out of a richer set of higher true information."
It's not quite this simple. When you go from the HDR down to 16bit you're bringing some of that richer set of information with you. It allows you to create cool effects as you bring out detail or create an image with some kind of stylized effect.
Click to expand...

And, this is exactly what I am saying. 16 Bit tone mapped from true HDR is preserving some "true" information (just like 4K -> 2K), where as software-varied exposures out of a single exposure image is not creating new information (like 2K -> 4K). I think we are in agreement here.
 
it would be great to program red so it will bracket exposures. i wonder if it's mechanically possible to bracket at 60-120 fps?
 
Absolutely right, but it's fun to play with because the results look far better than anything from compressed HD footage which is throwing away so much info that you can't even come close to doing anything fun with it when you do the pseudo HDR hack. After trying to play with compressed footage I was kind of blown away by what's possible in comparison with the RED RAW footage. Which is what sent me down this path.
 
Would it be possible to create HDR with time lapse footage from the RED if you varied the exposure each time it recorded and then combined the frames into HDR in post?
 
How are these achieved? can't be HDR technique alone.....
 
dvpixl said:
How are these achieved? can't be HDR technique alone.....
Click to expand...

Sorry, I do not intend to disclose my workflow :devil: , but you are right, it is more than HDR alone. I am able to achieve motion picture footage with up to 20 stops of latidude in either and both temporal and spacial dimension :w00t: and either compress or track exposure range. Good fun.

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com
 
Sample

Sample

OK, here is a sample. It is not production footage as there are many faults in this footage (lens flare, some clipping, etc..). This is just a demonstration only. There is about 20 stops between dark and highlight areas here and anyone who tried to shoot similar scene shoud know that there is no way (with film or digital) to get so much detail and colour in the rocks and sea while pointing camera into the setting sun and not clipping the entire sky around it. If someone tells me how to upload a video clip that is ~20MB, I will post motion picture as well. The motion is smooth and does not flicker.

I have some other (prettier) examples with 18-20 stops of temporal dynamic range without racking aperture or shutter. I would need to upload another ~10MB of video clip somehow:help: .

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com
 
Pawel, you could just use a grad ND to shoot something like that.

As far as uploading clips, just get a free account at vimeo.com and upload the HD clips there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top