Looking at Scratch? A little advice..

[sparkhope]

There is no Adobe DI app..

Hans

maybe i'm using DI much too loosely...it seems people use DI to mean anything from scanning to cc these days.

how about edit in premiere and color correct in AE? would this be contingent on R3D support for Adobe? Trying to understand...

thx

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

With a DI app. you can conform and colour correct a film project. Nowadays people would call such a application also a DI app. even there is no film out. The idea behind using a dedcated app. for this task is speed (RT if possible) and convenience.

The cheapest DI app. is Apple Color. Then there are Scratch and SpeedGrade, follwed by Baselight, Nukoda, Lustre, Clipster - did I miss someone? All are differerent, not only by price but also by performance.

Color gives you a good idea what DI apps. can do. For a working RED workflow a DI app. is vital.

Hans

 

[sparkhope]

With a DI app. you can conform and colour correct a film project. Nowadays people would call such a application also a DI app. even there is no film out. The idea behind using a dedcated app. for this task is speed (RT if possible) and convenience.

The cheapest DI app. is Apple Color. Then there are Scratch and SpeedGrade, follwed by Baselight, Nukoda, Lustre, Clipster - did I miss someone? All are differerent, not only by price but also by performance.

Color gives you a good idea what DI apps. can do. For a working RED workflow a DI app. is vital.

Hans

thanks for your input Hans. It's much appreciated.

 

[laguun]

The cheapest DI app. is Apple Color. Then there are Scratch and SpeedGrade, follwed by Baselight, Nukoda, Lustre, Clipster - did I miss someone?

matrix chome
sgo mystika
davinci resolve (several products, especially for restauration)
piranha cinema5
pandora revolution
quantel Pablo / Q-Series
to name some.

also important to know is that speedgrade HD is priced at 9.999€.

All are differerent, not only by price but also by performance.
Color gives you a good idea what DI apps. can do. For a working RED workflow a DI app. is vital.
Hans

Yes. Also most people dont realizte that many DI solutions (speedgrade, scratch and lustre are examples) are -only- desktop software and the only hardware additional in the system is a Nvidia Graphics card. As with any desktop software, before the mass market economics take over, there is a time when such softwares are sold at a premium. As the classic 35mm DI market is getting more and more saturated, acquisitions of companies will take place (Avid and Adobe are already looking around) and prices will fall extremely. Apple Color is a good example for this: Users paid >30-40.000 USD for the software when it still was called Final Touch, now its 1399 including Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Is it possible that Adobe Master Collection CS3 could deal with R3D files (someday)? Or is this a pipe dream? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Peace out.

If Red openly documents the format of R3D files, then anybody can write a loader for Red's files with Adobe products -- Adobe themselves don't need to do it. Anybody can write a media importer using Adobe SDKs, which are freely available. The good thing is that Adobe Premiere CS3 SDK allows for 32-bit float per channel of color data, so some limitation which exists in Final Cut Pro, is already a non-issue for Adobe. Adobe After Effects, of course, can also do 32-bits per channel.

 

[M Most]

With a DI app. you can conform and colour correct a film project. ...
The cheapest DI app. is Apple Color.

I wouldn't call Color a DI app. I would call it a color corrector with very limited and barely functional conforming capabilities that is almost wholly dependent on another program (Final Cut) to produce deliverables.

 

[laguun]

If Red openly documents the format of R3D files, then anybody can write a loader for Red's files with Adobe products -- Adobe themselves don't need to do it. Anybody can write a media importer using Adobe SDKs, which are freely available. The good thing is that Adobe Premiere CS3 SDK allows for 32-bit float per channel of color data, so some limitation which exists in Final Cut Pro, is already a non-issue for Adobe. Adobe After Effects, of course, can also do 32-bits per channel.

Additionally Adobe CS / Premiere has 4K resolution support, missing in Final Cut.

 

[laguun]

I wouldn't call Color a DI app. I would call it a color corrector with very limited and barely functional conforming capabilities that is almost wholly dependent on another program (Final Cut) to produce deliverables.

hmm, on the other hand, most DI solutions have much weaker (or no) editing than color/fcs - i think i could easily do a DI on Color. What was rather unappealing to us here were the technical issues in color.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Additionally Adobe CS / Premiere has 4K resolution support, missing in Final Cut.

True. Adobe actually started putting in the support for 4096 x 4096 output up from 4000 x 4000 since Premiere Pro Version 2 -- the version before the new Adobe CS3.

In addition, in the new Adobe CS3, Adobe has introduced a very helpful MediaCore feature, where Effects API between After Effects and Premiere is more fully supported, and a single Effects Plugin can be loaded by After Effects and Premiere -- developers don't need to write two separate plugins for AE and Premiere Pro anymore, a single one, properly developed for MediaCore should suffice. However, that support does not extend to importers/exporters/graphics/etc APIs, only to Effects API.

In addition MediaCore support for After Effects 8.0.2 (and perhaps Premiere also) now loads many Quicktime files natively, instead of going through Quicktime components SDK, and hence, provides better gamma handling among other features.

I think Adobe CS3 is going to give FCP a tough ride.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Here's the thing ... and feel free to disagree and discuss this point, because it's been going around in my head for awhile now ... Most of the RED customer base are DPs. Camera people. Shooters. Not post-production professionals.

What I would be watching is all the workflow XXXX's Reds will require and in what budget, regardless of who actually bought the cam.

So tell me - how big do you think the market for any post-production tool above $5K REALLY is for the majority of the RED customer base??

I understand that high end clients need expensive tools to justify the cost of production.
I also understand that it's much easier to have fewer clients paying five figures than thousands paying four. Easier for maintenance.

Red has brought high quality footage acquisition for lower budgets. Fact.
Grading for that footage is still stuck at high budget. Fact.
You have a great grading tool. Fact.
Market for that tool is increased with every Red One's leaving Lake Forrest. Fact.
Same could apply to Scarlet. Guess - but very likely to be a fact.
There are much more potential clients out there able to pay four figures for a grading tool than the ones able to pay five. Guess - but very likely to be a fact.

What happens when Color crap gets sorted out, supports 4k, 12 bit and becomes available to many ? Or when other "Color's" appear ?

I think the point is not whether there is a market, but in which one Assimilate rather wants to be - being tricky to compete in both.

 

[M Most]

I understand that high end clients need expensive tools to justify the cost of production.

Nobody uses expensive tools to justify anything. High end tools provide efficiency - the ability to do more things, more accurately, and thus explore more creative possibilities in less time. They provide both software and hardware tools that allow the DI process to proceed more interactively and faster, which is quite necessary when tight turnarounds are required, as they almost always are in high end work. Their value in this environment is quite real, it is not political.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

High end tools provide efficiency - the ability to do more things, more accurately, and thus explore more creative possibilities in less time. They provide both software and hardware tools that allow the DI process to proceed more interactively and faster, which is quite necessary when tight turnarounds are required, as they almost always are in high end work. Their value in this environment is quite real, it is not political.

Agreed.

My point was about the market size adapted price-point for those tools.

Nobody uses expensive tools to justify anything.

Not quite true.

 

[mezmo]

4K DIY DI seems to be a unique RED user thing, I've said before, it's a bit like doing your own dental work in my book but I can understand why people
think they need to do it. Maybe they want to save money and don't mind the pain involved or maybe they just need a conform tool (Scratch$20-25K)
or a 1080p to DPX tool conform & grade tool (Speedgrade HD 15-20$K) or slug it out (FCP/COLOR) in 10 bit YUV. But do they need Scratch Lite? And what part of Scratch is lite?
Could there already be a solutions above for some?
Cheapish options do already exist if we just think for a moment about what we really need.
But do people really need 4K DIY DI? And what is that, It's sure got me puzzled and terrified at the thought. I would never want to grade my own film at home.
Test conform from a edl maybe, rough grade for early screenings maybe,
but to sit in front of a Mac or PC for months with dubious software (Lite
versions) trying to prepare a project for film out or digital cinema delivery, no thanks.
Bring on the boys with the toys and talent and stop stuffing about. Delivery is *$%#ing difficult and should never done on low tech gear IMHO.
It would be nice to have some R3D tools to stuff about in Apple and Adobe though,
(we like to fiddle), but 4K DIY DI ????????
Mezmo

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Delivery is *$%#ing difficult and should never done on low tech gear IMHO.
It would be nice to have some R3D tools to stuff about in Apple and Adobe though,
(we like to fiddle), but 4K DIY DI ????????
Mezmo

I dunno Mezmo, seems to me that scratch lite would address exactly what you're talking about, and what a few of us have been advocating for for awhile now. HD or 2K output on very high tech gear at an affordable price.
So are you on board or what are you saying? What you've written is the reason why we need scratch lite....

EDIT: and diy 4K might mean I'm finishing my film at home. Same as I edit sometimes. Why does that 'terrify' you? Welcome to technology. You seem to imply that if one is working at home that you're a hack mucking about with this stuff. Rest assured this is not the case....

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

At this point I'd be pretty happy with fast and reliable 2K workflow.
I'm in no rush for 4K. I'm keeping the master files anyway.

 

[mezmo]

Hi Evolve,
Affordable HD output on high tech gear and the software to do it is available now.
You have many choices. Apple, Adobe and others.
2K is a little more complicated.
You indicated on the Scratch Price thread that you think software should be
in the $3,500 range for conform grading & finishing 2/4K material.
That's fine but your still going to need a $100-200,000 plus spend in
hardware to get any sort of decent DI system in place.
Scratch software like Nucoda and others are broken into modules for good reason. More than one person operates, and they are part of a system
that includes Storage, Display,Color managemant and some
grunty and expensive computers to get the whole show on the road.
Is there enough room in your garage or spare bedroom for all this and do you know a good colorist who would be happy to work at home, also needs to be familiar with film out (Lab) and digital cinema requirements.
Scratchalies,Conform,Colorgrading, Finishing. Also Nucodaata Coform
Film Cutter, Film Master ARE the affordable softwares for serious DI.
with Speedgrade DI & Framecycler DI even cheaper.
A system (hardware/software) with the above software can come in at
under $150K and that's considered affordable comapared to others like IQ and Pablo at over $300K.
This is the world of 2K/4K DI, you rent this stuff, don't buy it for home use
unless Mum & Dad are very rich, sorta like Jim.
What WE need, you and me, is a few little R3d things that we can use in
Apple (don't laugh) and Adobe so we can fiddle about and save
some money prior to serious DI with the experts. Also Redcine has potential,
and it's a lot less than $3,500.00
Cheers Mezmo.

 

[laguun]

Hi Evolve,
Affordable HD output on high tech gear and the software to do it is available now.
You have many choices. Apple, Adobe and others.
2K is a little more complicated.

Hi Mezmo,

Apple FC and Color work up to 2K.
Adobe CS handles 4K, with cineform even in RT.
Aja and blackmagic design offer several solutions from 1-3.000 USD to allow uncompressed 2K, and a decent 2K and higher realtime capable raid 5/6 with 12 Terrabytes should not cost much more than 3.000 USD.

You indicated on the Scratch Price thread that you think software should be
in the $3,500 range for conform grading & finishing 2/4K material.
That's fine but your still going to need a $100-200,000 plus spend in
hardware to get any sort of decent DI system in place.

There are several 2K/4K systems at 10, 20, 40K. Iridas speedgrade HD is able to conform 4K with 1080p display and is 9.999€.

Scratch software like Nucoda and others are broken into modules for good reason. More than one person operates, and they are part of a system
that includes Storage, Display,Color managemant and some
grunty and expensive computers to get the whole show on the road.

The modules can be helpful.

This is the world of 2K/4K DI, you rent this stuff, don't buy it for home use
unless Mum & Dad are very rich, sorta like Jim.

I think the term "DI" is becoming obsolete pretty fast as term for software.
DI in the classical sense stands for the process of scanning film, mastering digitally and recording it back to different media, one of them being film.

For red, a "DI" system is basicly nothing else than a non-linear editor with colorcorrection.

Meanwhile NLEs and packages as Adobe and Apple have reached the 2K and 4K space and it is no longer requirring specialised software. 8K masters or even higher for venue, trade show or installation are often mastered on desktop VFX packages as After Effects or combustion.

What WE need, you and me, is a few little R3d things that we can use in
Apple (don't laugh) and Adobe so we can fiddle about and save
some money prior to serious DI with the experts. Also Redcine has potential,
and it's a lot less than $3,500.00
Cheers Mezmo.

I think the main interest of many redusers is to have a postproduction workflow which matches the innovation and price (r)evolution of the camera, and this NAB some hard- and softwares to meet these criteria will be introduced - among them a playback system from red.

 

[M Most]

Hi Mezmo,
Meanwhile NLEs and packages as Adobe and Apple have reached the 2K and 4K space ...

And have no color management capabilities, which is quite necessary in any kind of DI finishing path that involves actual real world deliverables beyond a Quicktime file.

I think the main interest of many redusers is to have a postproduction workflow which matches the innovation and price (r)evolution of the camera, and this NAB some hard- and softwares to meet these criteria will be introduced - among them a playback system from red.

I think the main interest is often in having a post production workflow that requires no knowledge of post production and produces all deliverables for all formats regardless of what is used for display when color correction is occurring - in other words, Final Cut with a "make all deliverables including film and have them all be perfect" button. That does not exist, and is not likely to exist, at least if you want all of those things done correctly.

 

[mezmo]

Hi Laguun,
None of things mentioned above come in a complete system that have
all the capability of systems produced by Scratch Nucoda and Speedgrade
and others.
My point is that even if the software and some of the hardware is cheap
for 2K, a complete turnkey system that can perform all traditional DI tasks
and more is not. (cheap)
One third of that system cost going to the purchase of software to run such a system is not expensive in my book. In fact reasonable, considering in
most countries expentiture on software can be written of as a tax deduction
in the first 12-24 months after purchase.
A RED DI system is available now, it's called Final Cut/COLOR and as you point
out it already handles 2K.
But I think most people here want more than that, they want fully featured
traditional DI solutions software to run a complete system for around $5K.
And even if they get it, the hardware spend to make such an application
run will blow the bank balance anyway for most 'at home' users like Evolve.
If your trying to finish a project to film out or Digital Cinema release then
you do need a traditional DI high spec system in place.
Just owning the software for such a system won't solve anything for these guys.
But it might help you.
Cheers Mezmo

 

[laguun]

And have no color management capabilities, which is quite necessary in any kind of DI finishing path that involves actual real world deliverables beyond a Quicktime file.

For precision work a truelight etc can help, also specialized VfW codecs as cineform can be pretty helpful. However i -exactly- understand what you are talking about. The number of display-gamma based Quicktime FCP movies which have been raising the eyebrows of their editors when they first saw it on a calibrated monitor system here is in the dozens and often required another (luckily only global) correction for these customers. (classical example is: "finishing" on their lcds with qt desktop gamma in rgb and then going hdcam... especially younger animation/vfx folks often run into this trap).

Used with knowledge and calibrated gear i however wouldnt have objections to use Adobe for online.

Also i suppose that we will see -many- folks finishing in 709 to then continue to RGB... especially in the FCS crowd.

I think the main interest is often in having a post production workflow that requires no knowledge of post production and produces all deliverables for all formats regardless of what is used for display when color correction is occurring - in other words, Final Cut with a "make all deliverables including film and have them all be perfect" button. That does not exist, and is not likely to exist, at least if you want all of those things done correctly.

yes, i agree. It is one of the classic mistakes that people assume that "its digital, so its automatically perfect and i dont have to learn more than how to render it..."
X´Y´Z´ will (or can) be a help in the long run, but i dont expect to see that showing up on the desktop $$$$-$$$$$ space in 2008.

OTOH: There are many houses who already have a (or several) decent DI workflow in house who do have the knowledge and gear and arent shy to correct/workaround the limitations in adobe/autodesk desktop/apple/avid (ds mainly here). From the red customers in Berlin i would suppose that 4 houses belong in this category (fxfactory, redrental, magna and the jtm empire).

p.s.
best screw up we have come along so far was 2007 - 2 editors (one VFX, one real), one working with fields all the way (source was progressive), the other partially interlaced, most stuff in progressive(but field order reversed), one in YUV (the real world stuff), the other in RGB (the vfx guy, obviously) - looking at their "final result" all the way on their LCD in proxy resolutions...
They called if we could overlay a TGA sequence over a QT and play the result out to hdcam.... they were up for a -good- surprise And as the mistakes were not consistent, it took them some days to fix everything. Luckily they didnt blow their deadline, and the movie itself was good.