OEM Supplier?

[Kevin Olsen]

First, can someone explain to me how RED started? To build electronics like this, you would need, conservatively, $75 million to start an electronics manufacturer to build a 4k camera that performs this well. Is this how RED started?

On to scarlet. Considering the amount of money it took to build the RED One, and the exponentially larger amount of money it would take to build smaller electronics, does everyone really expect a totally new camera never seen before; beating out Sony, Canon, JVC and others? With a staff of people feverishly working to iron out the kinks in the current RED One, and given it's only been available for around a year and a half, how could they have time to develop a camera from scratch?

What seems more likely is that they will use there expertise learned from building the RED One to modify an existing platform and make a "tuned" version of a street camera; examples being JVC GZ-HD7 or the Canon HF10. They could upgrade the lenses, increase the processing power to handle 1080p, and adapt the camera to fit the platform of the RED accessories. This would give them the edge over the competitors and provide the performance we all want.

Not being a cynic, but I find it very hard to believe they will be able to do so as many of you have claimed. I would love to believe that they would produce a camera themselves, but I don't see how this is possible. It's taken Sony, Canon, and JVC several decades of producing electronics with hundred of millions of dollars in research and development, engineers, manufacturing facilities and other resources that RED has only had for just a fraction of that. How can we expect something so revolutionary?

KO

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

First, can someone explain to me how RED started? To build electronics like this, you would need, conservatively, $75 million to start an electronics manufacturer to build a 4k camera that performs this well.

Not sure how you calculated that. Red doesn't exactly work in any traditional ways.

On to scarlet. Considering the amount of money it took to build the RED One, and the exponentially larger amount of money it would take to build smaller electronics, does everyone really expect a totally new camera never seen before; beating out Sony, Canon, JVC and others?

We'll know soon enough won't we!

Not being a cynic, but I find it very hard to believe they will be able to do so as many of you have claimed. I would love to believe that they would produce a camera themselves, but I don't see how this is possible. It's taken Sony, Canon, and JVC several decades of producing electronics with hundred of millions of dollars in research and development, engineers, manufacturing facilities and other resources that RED has only had for just a fraction of that. How can we expect something so revolutionary?

KO

True innovation happen in the spark of an idea. It's not always about millions of dollars in research.

 

[chuckt]

First, can someone explain to me how RED started? To build electronics like this, you would need, conservatively, $75 million to start an electronics manufacturer to build a 4k camera that performs this well. Is this how RED started?
KO

The most important thing is that RED sold more cameras than all the competitors combined and multiplied by 10.
RED is the only serious 35mm/4K camera you can buy today.
RED is the cheapest 35mm digital movie camera you can buy.
Several theatrical movies have been shot with RED.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

First, can someone explain to me how RED started? To build electronics like this, you would need, conservatively, $75 million to start an electronics manufacturer to build a 4k camera that performs this well. Is this how RED started?

Well Jim Jannard is worth something like $2 billion, so he presumably he has the resources to establish something like that - however it's very unlikely that RED started their own manufacturing operation to support the camera. The will have designed the electronics and had a contract manufacturer produce the actual components.

On to scarlet. Considering the amount of money it took to build the RED One, and the exponentially larger amount of money it would take to build smaller electronics, does everyone really expect a totally new camera never seen before; beating out Sony, Canon, JVC and others? With a staff of people feverishly working to iron out the kinks in the current RED One, and given it's only been available for around a year and a half, how could they have time to develop a camera from scratch?

What seems more likely is that they will use there expertise learned from building the RED One to modify an existing platform and make a "tuned" version of a street camera; examples being JVC GZ-HD7 or the Canon HF10. They could upgrade the lenses, increase the processing power to handle 1080p, and adapt the camera to fit the platform of the RED accessories. This would give them the edge over the competitors and provide the performance we all want.

I'd argue that what the RED team has learned from RED One puts them in a very good position to manufacture another camera. The kinks they've feverishly worked out of the RED One will be kinks they don't need to work out of Scarlet.

If the Scarlet is indeed a 2K camera, and doesn't require all the I/O ports and interfaces of RED One, then there's no reason the phyical board size couldn't be reduced substantially.

Not being a cynic, but I find it very hard to believe they will be able to do so as many of you have claimed. I would love to believe that they would produce a camera themselves, but I don't see how this is possible. It's taken Sony, Canon, and JVC several decades of producing electronics with hundred of millions of dollars in research and development, engineers, manufacturing facilities and other resources that RED has only had for just a fraction of that. How can we expect something so revolutionary?

Given the motivations expressed by RED for producing the RED One camera, I think it's very unlikely that the Scarlet won't be a custom camera built to RED's specifications to meet the market they believe exists for it. There's no reason to believe that the skills and experience they've gained so far can't be applied to a new camera. The Sony, Canon and JVC's of the world have different requirements for their products. They need to make things even cheaper, and they need to produce many many many more. They also need to be user-proof for the most part to appeal to the mass market. They are big companies with product plans that are defined years in advance, they can't operate in the same way.

For my money, aspects of the Scarlet have been being developed in parallel to the RED One from just about Day 0. I wouldn't be surprised if some parts of it have served as proof of concept for the RED One, and vice versa.

 

[Stephen Williams]

The most important thing is that RED sold more cameras than all the competitors combined and multiplied by 10.

Hi,

Sony has sold an awful lot of cameras over the last 30 years.

Stephen

 

[Eugene]

the Saleen business model

the Saleen business model

to modify an existing platform and make a "tuned" version of a street camera

Saleen made the s7r and they sell tuned versions of the Mustang.
RED is making the ONE.
So you think that RED should make a tuned version of a street camera. I agree. Jim should get together with Canon and make a tuned version of the TX1 (or at least the next generation of the TX1.)

images from saleen.com
(Me, I drive an untuned Subaru.)

 

[laguun]

Hi,

Sony has sold an awful lot of cameras over the last 30 years.

Stephen

Red outsold any manufacturer in the 35mm space by far, including Arri.

It will be very interesting to see the shot- mid- and long-term effects on the whole rental business once 5.000 digital 35mm cameras are in the market.

Sony, Panavision, Ikegami, Thomson/Grass Valley are not really affected. Their professional business is growing fast as the world moves from SD to HD. It will be interesting to see the effecrs on the middle and small companies as Arri, Panavision and Aaton etc. Sales of 416 and 235 are still good, in relation to their new competition however they are, as incredible it is, minimal.

BTW: Does anyone have figures for SI? I have no idea if the SI is selling in dozens or houndreds.

 

[laguun]

True innovation happen in the spark of an idea. It's not always about millions of dollars in research.

agreed. 100%.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Red outsold any manufacturer in the 35mm space by far, including Arri.

Hi,

Correct, however in another thread you said "creativity first, format second. and certain formats are suited better for special purposes than others" so total no of cameras sold of any format would seem to be relevant here.

Stephen

 

[laguun]

Hi,

Correct, however in another thread you said "creativity first, format second. and certain formats are suited better for special purposes than others" so total no of cameras sold of any format would seem to be relevant here.

Stephen

Red one alone outsells all S16, 35 and 65 Arri cameras together.

I have no exact numbers for arri, but i would be surprised if they deliver even 500 cameras a year.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Red one alone outsells all S16, 35 and 65 Arri cameras together.

I have no exact numbers for arri, but i would be surprised if they deliver even 500 cameras a year.

Hi,

Bear in mind Arri has many 50 + year old cameras still in use today, so the no they sell per year is less important. As Arri camera packages cost rather more per piece it's quite possible that Arri Turnover for cameras & accessories exceeds that of Red. I am quite sure that Sony turnover of camera & accessories also exceeds that of Red by a large factor.

You have previously mentioned the no of Cine Alta cameras sold, that should give you an idea of the impact of 5,000 Red cameras in the market place. The most obvious problem I can see is the lack of high quality cine optics available to rent.

Stephen

 

[laguun]

Hi,
Bear in mind Arri has many 50 + year old cameras still in use today, so the no they sell per year is less important.

Not for the company.
installed base and market share are two different aspect.

Also, market saturation is an extremely important factor here.

I always told, year by year, Arri at every single occasion that i would see a market for 2000-4000 "D10"s. They didnt think my estimation was correct. Now they know.
The customers are lost. No matter what arri introduces now, and might it be 8K at 50.000 with 120fps, a -huge- chunk of the market will be red for a decade minimum.

Its a shame. No matter if Thorens, Bosch, Steenbeck, Leica, Grundig... its a German curse that the market leading champions always translate way to late from mechanics to digital. In retrospect economy students will have a nearly perfect example of mismanagement. I hope that Dejan Illic now will pull the rudder a 90 degrees, but i am afraid its to late already. I suppose Arri will be fine, but #2 in 35mm cams.

As Arri camera packages cost rather more per piece it's quite possible that Arri Turnover for cameras & accessories exceeds that of Red.

I dont think so.
possible? yes. realistic? no.
If we (guestimation) count ~90-145.000 for arri and ~25-40.000 for red on a per customer average, arri is still a lot behind.

If we count in arri rental, light & digital, then i would also suppose that arri still has a higher revenue.

I am quite sure that Sony turnover of camera & accessories also exceeds that of Red by a large factor.

100% agreed. Sony sells an immense amount of cameras.

You have previously mentioned the no of Cine Alta cameras sold, that should give you an idea of the impact of 5,000 Red cameras in the market place.

Here i fully disagree.
a) Many of the HDCAMs go directly to dedicated use in the networks, and never show up in the rental biz.
b) PRICE! A decent HDCAM setup is easily ~150.000, ours which is already upper quality (class 1 crt on set monitoring, vector/wave, two top angenieux zooms, uncompressed discrecorder etc) is in the 200.000, and monster-setups (add codex, hdcam sr and maybe a digiprime set) is ~300.000.
Even if i want to, i cant flood the market with such an investment. With red i will have -no- problem at all to do so, and i am one of the people who estimate ~100-200€ rental rate by end of 2008 for a red setup (excluding lens). We already have several scheduled S16/35mm fullfeatures negotiating with us to switch to red for Q2/3/4 2008, -several- at the same time. I am undecided if we will offer 3 or 4 setups of red this summer - i couldnt even dare to think about that in HDCAM. So, bottomline HDCAM (no matter if SR or not, no matter if 750/790/900/900R/23, Viper or D20) was an -alternative- to 35/16 at a similar pricepoint, and demand and offer were balanced. RED is an alternative at a -much- lower price, and offer will be MUCH higher than demand for -all- systems, no matter if 16/35/HDCAM or whatever at the end of the year. Add in the dramatic reduction of cost for tape/stock (a 100€ disk contains 6 hours of redcode...). If you shoot with lets say 3 units, thats some solid $$$.$$$ less cost at higher or comparable end result quality. No sane producer ignores $$$.$$$.
c) creative possibilities: 35mm DOF and massive overcranking were the -main- missing points in the digital systems, and were for us the main reasons to use film instead of sensor on some projects. This reduced overall demand for digital cinematography cameras, and red now offers both.
d) en vogue. It might be different at c.com, but in the real world, many, if not most, of the top dps i meet here are really excited to have this new tool. Everybody wants to check it out, many already did and want to use it for their next projects.
e) convergence. The interesting things about this camera is, that it attracts a whole new mix of customers. Demand exists from skeleton crew indies (instead of old IIbc/III/416 or HVX200 or EX1) over midlevel (instead of 235/435 or 750/900/Viper) to A-budget (instead of Arricam or F23/Genesis).

The most obvious problem I can see is the lack of high quality cine optics available to rent.
Stephen

Yes, there will be shortage for 2-3 quarters for sure.
otoh we will see a GAZILLION of new and old lenses suddenly popping up. Luckily i kept our 35 PL-Glass when we started translating to digital in 2002, as i was expecting PL 35mm to become sensor based.
I am also thinking about investing on another primeset - 1.2/1.3 preferred.

If scarlet has a PL mount (i dont think so) things will become messy however.

 

[chuckt]

BTW: Does anyone have figures for SI? I have no idea if the SI is selling in dozens or houndreds.

SI did not sell any cameras. SI had no funding. So, SI was sold. Jim quietly bought SI.
The SI camera that was being manufactured in Germany, was renamed Scarlet and RED will show it in NAB.
Don't quote me. Consider this speculation.

 

[Lexicon]

BTW: Does anyone have figures for SI? I have no idea if the SI is selling in dozens or houndreds.

They won't release any EXACT information yet but their cameras are definitely out there and being used in productions. I believe they have some new product announcements for NAB geared towards the use of the SI-2K and post production work flow.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

SI did not sell any cameras. SI had no funding. So, SI was sold. Jim quietly bought SI.
The SI camera that was being manufactured in Germany, was renamed Scarlet and RED will show it in NAB.
Don't quote me. Consider this speculation.

Interesting idea, but there are a few problems with it: (1) the SI-2K Mini, although about the right size for a "pocket" camera, has no viewfinder or LCD and needs to be tethered to a laptop or housed within the SI-2K camera in order to function -- the former configuration seems more of a niche tight-quarters cam, and the latter more a form-factor competitor for the Red One; (2) although Jim could charge whatever he wanted for the camera, the SI-2K Mini alone costs at least $12K, making the 4K Red One seem all the more attractive at $17,500; (3) Jim intimated that Scarlet would be innovative, and rebranding someone else's technology wouldn't be.

 

[Kevin Olsen]

Thanks for all of your responses, they were all very helpful.

I am looking forward to the NAB announcement as I am sure all of you are and anxiously waiting the news!

 

[Obin Olson]

I think your talking out of your asses with all this tuned stuff..but that is just me, and my ass talking back.

 

[Lexicon]

SI did not sell any cameras. SI had no funding. So, SI was sold. Jim quietly bought SI.
The SI camera that was being manufactured in Germany, was renamed Scarlet and RED will show it in NAB.
Don't quote me. Consider this speculation.

SI's cameras are already out there and being used. They just haven't given them to the masses yet. There are going to be some things coming from them at NAB.