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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Future improvements...still possible?

Jannard said:
There will be a special build for 1080P (and 720P). But it will NOT be scaled.

We are doing this because our customers think they want it. We see no reason... really. But we heard it long enough to put it on the list.
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

I honestly think a lot of the frustration with this back and forth is due to misinterpretation of people's comments.

I don't think anyone has ever been asking for a cropped 720 or 1080 format. The whole point to having a 1080 version in-camera was to acheive higher fps from the full sensor than shooting in 4K onboard can give us (which, again, limits us to ~30p onboard) while keeping 35mm DOF, FOV, and relative resolution. You keep stating that "the frame rate of full frame is fixed at 60fps. Period." But we can't GET 60p from the 4K format onboard. THAT was the whole point of the scaled formats. The original feature list indicated that the scaled formats would allow for up to 60p from the full frame, and 1080 scaled-from-4K footage would cut together with other 4K native material much more nicely than than the only other higher fps option at the time - 2K windowed. Thankfully, the inclusion of 3K windowed is a decent compromise and should help this situation somewhat, even if we still can't use the entire sensor to achieve 60p.

Now that you have made your position clear that you have dropped development of all scaled modes entirely - regardless of the reason - I think you should re-ask the userbase if they're interested in a 1080 or 720 *cropped* format. Perhaps when 1080 was mentioned a long time ago, some people were assuming it would be scaled while others were thinking such a format would be windowed and were having a hard time understanding why anyone would want it. I can only agree that offering a format which cuts out 80% or more of the sensor's total resolution is next to useless.

1080 monitoring output, on the other hand, would be a drastically welcome addition.
 
May be it is technically possible to have 1080p scaled when there will be no Redcode coding at the same time just 1080p dual-link output.
It might release enough processing resources for good quality debayer and resize.

Just tought..
Priit
 
Häakon said:
I don't think anyone has ever been asking for a cropped 720 or 1080 format.
The whole point to having a 1080 version in-camera was to acheive higher fps from the full sensor than shooting in 4K onboard can give us
Click to expand...

No, that's not my reason, persoanlly.

The main reason for me to shoot in 1080p instead of 4k, is to streamline the workflow better. Not speed in FPS, but in worktime, which is crucial.

Especially since the step of converting each file to 1080p, seems so damn unecessary. Both time consuming, frustrating and temporary storage eating.

But yeah, the feature of being able to shoot 1080p in full format 35mm is the top priority overall. Especially if I can use my whole Nikon lens battery.
 
No onel wants cropped 1080p.

Back in the day (like 1.5 years ago) the RGB formats existed.

2k scaled RGB would be a even scale from 4k, which should be a less processor intensive scale as it needed "Less taps" as Stuart and Graeme said.

1080p scaled RGB would take the 2k scaled image and crop this 2k RGB image into 1080p, which is also an easy operation. We needed those easy operations to make it possible for realtime on board.

This old chart from RED.com anno 2006 shows the 1080p in s35 format at 60 fps, which was what häakon and I wanted :-) This chart came out around the same time 2k scaled RGB disappeared.
RedFormats3.jpg


If you look closely you'll notice that 1080p would even allow you to use the full 4520 of the sensor
But this is all history now.
This was also the time when unprocessed RGB was mentioned. This was RGB with only the debayer baked in, nothing else.

If cropped 1080p recording is all that is possible don't bother, I really can't think of anyone that wants that....

Again this is not to simply dwell the past. I do understand that everything changes and the RAW workflow does work great and 3k at 50fps is pretty close to what we originally wanted. It's just that little annoying claim that we want cropped 1080p (sorry Jim) Because WE dont and WE have never wanted it.

What I did want was:
- live 1080p Dual link output
- An ultra fast RGB workflow option. 4k scaled to 1080p RGB codec, which could be converted ultra fast in a computer to another codec otr played out to tape.

Remember it was pretty surprisingly for a lot of people that all the HD-SDI's would be 720p preview, with a rough "debayer" and not even static noise removal from the CMOS.
 
hybris said:
No, that's not my reason, persoanlly.

The main reason for me to shoot in 1080p instead of 4k, is to streamline the workflow better. Not speed in FPS, but in worktime, which is crucial.

Especially since the step of converting each file to 1080p, seems so damn unecessary. Both time consuming, frustrating and temporary storage eating.

But yeah, the feature of being able to shoot 1080p in full format 35mm is the top priority overall. Especially if I can use my whole Nikon lens battery.
Click to expand...

The RED Camera is not a video camera with a 35mm chip and lens on the front. The RED Camera is a Digital Cinema Camera and is primarily designed to replace the Panavision, Arriflex, Ultracam, Aaton 35mm movie cameras on a movie shoot. Yes, you can use it anywhere a video camera is used, but you have to take it with it's intended workflow. The workflow is typical Hollywood movie production workflow.

Yes, you can shoot a wedding with it or a documentary or your sister's birthday party, but the point of the camera is to provide the highest quality image currently possible in the market it was intended to serve. Scaling an image off the chip to 1080p is exactly what the Panavision Genesis camera does brilliantly. That's the camera to use or a CineAlta if you need 1080p. RED is overkill for you if you need to respond to a client's immediate need for 1080.

As for storage, the cost for storing .r3d files is the cheapest part of the equation. You can buy 1TB drive for less than the cost of renting an HD SR deck for a day. The time required to down convert, however unnecessary it may seem, is actually quite comparable to the time required to input and output 1080. Unless of course you own the deck, etc. Please explain to me the process where 1080 footage is shot and then is immediately available to
edit and online, without the downloading off a disk, card or digitized via a deck and output the same way.

You can have someone besides yourself convert your RED footage while you continue shooting. Every workflow has steps in it that require time, 1080p is no exception. I was on a Genesis shoot a few months back and the Producer walked out with the tapes, but he had to drive to get a rental deck, hook it up, digitize, take the deck back, edit, and go through the process of getting the deck again to output. Major pain in the ass. 1080p is just the current architecture, there is no guarantee that it will survive the future.
 
Jannard said:
There will be a special build for 1080P (and 720P). But it will NOT be scaled.

We are doing this because our customers think they want it. We see no reason... really. But we heard it long enough to put it on the list.

If everyone changes their mind (PLEASE!) then we will scratch it off the list and add something that really matters.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, you are a very patient and understanding soul. I hope it's far, far down on your to-do list, after "Retire and live happily ever after".:biggrin:
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Please explain to me the process where 1080 footage is shot and then is immediately available to
edit and online, without the downloading off a disk, card or digitized via a deck and output the same way.
Click to expand...

Live 1080p HD-SDI output from the RED and into an AJA IO HD and record ProRez HQ onto a disk. Edit away...
 
This is from Stuart a little while back.

"No, I didn't say that. I said that the HD Preview output (which is one of the HD-SDI outputs and the HDMI output) is 1280 x 720p. There are also two more HD-SDI outputs on the camera - currently mapped to the same 720p signal. The comments about 1080p output is only available with 1080p recording still stands."
 
they might still do this, but I think Redcode RGB is way behind. From what I understand you cannot scale RAW to RAW (according to Jim and Graeme), so until they actually develop an RGB codec then this wont happen for a while.
 
It's not as simple as just reading every other row and column with a bayer chip as each pixel doesn't hold information for both Red, Green and Blue. Take a look at this page for more information. There are, however, some algorithms that can do this but I'm sure someone has patented the hell out of it :greedy:
 
I did small experiment with AE and Premiere. I loaded 4K data and corrected CA and fringing, saved only the parameters of this rendering so original data was untouched, than I went and did scaling from 4K to 2K, again saved parameters only, (almost instantaneous). Finished color grading and other things, hit render button and it took usual 2 frame per second to render all, lens distortion, scaling and color grading.

So there is a way to get RAW straight from the camera and edit right away with scaling and grading etc.
I guess more experienced guys know it all along, just too busy to repeat it here time and time again.
 
tlorenzo said:
It's not as simple as just reading every other row and column with a bayer chip as each pixel doesn't hold information for both Red, Green and Blue. Take a look at this page for more information. There are, however, some algorithms that can do this but I'm sure someone has patented the hell out of it :greedy:
Click to expand...

Yes, I found these posts so I deleted mine.
Since Misterium is fully addressable like RAM memory you can read kind of every second row and column but you are down from 8MP sensor to 4MP sensor and this will produce ugly image. OLPF is also tuned to one pixel size not two pixel size, anyway no point of going back once you have 4K.
 
It's 1080p scaled incamera that is asked for, not cropped mode. That would only have been silly :S
 
cropped 1080p would do nothing for me. like many others I only want full frame anything from this camera, that is the point of it along with raw
 
I'm trying to figure out what everyone is talking about the camera can do a 2k wavlet extraction out of the bayer thats signifigantly faster than the full 4k. Extrapolate that to the 16x9 mode and you can do a 1080 extraction without taking the full render hit for 4k.
 
Can I get a simple yes or no on whether it's possible to get a 1:1 pixel view in 4k?

Not when, not how, just is it possible?
 
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