Cineform as a Tiered Partner

[Eddie]

You were never a scam Jannard!
That was just the word that came out of the mouths of people pissing their pants back then...

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Pretty easy to understand.

Easy to understand. Hard to explain to clients.

"You see, the folks that make the cameras are worried that the tools I want to use to enable your post system may stop working when they change stuff so I'm not allowed to have any tools just yet. No, it doesn't matter that we have the Internet and the tools could be updated within hours of any changes, probably automatically. Who needs that kind of inconvenience? I might be tempted to call the wrong company for support, you know. Anyway, here's a stack of compactflash cards with your commercial/music video/movie on them. Enjoy."

I completely understand and respect that you are an honest and honorable businessman. I know there is a lot going on behind the scenes that I don't and can't know about.

My frustration comes from seeing previously open doors being closed when perhaps they could have just been labelled "enter at your own risk".

I'm actually OK with the current Red workflow. A lifetime PC guy, I bit the bullet and bought a Mac last week. I was just really looking forward to an open, community-developed camera system and was offended when it suddenly became all corporate (or appeared to. Prove me wrong, please.)

 

[Finner]

What part of our plan do you not like?

1. That we made a deal with 2 partners over a year ago?
2. That we need others to wait for finished code to build from?
3. That we plan on opening up to all when we are finished?

Just curious. Remember, if you pick #1, it becomes would'a, could'a, should'a. 20/20 hindsight.

Jim

I choose:

4. That your partners sit on their hands, close their eyes and ears to the needs and demands of customers and turn reduser into a battlefield that you and your extremely hard working team have to put up with.

Jim I do not see this being on you or red. You guys held up your part of the bargain developing a camera that delivers so much more then you first promised (and being called a scam and worse things for suggesting that you could build a camera with the lesser initial specs and then up even those specs).

Red knows how to listen and deliver. A skill sadly lacking with your partners. not your fault, just an unfortunate outcome of business sometimes.

 

[Jannard]

i think people would be -much- more relaxed if they would a) know a rough estimate until stage 3) is reached and b) that there will be competition among the postmanufacturers without a headstart for only 2 after phase 1) and 2) are finished.

I think i am in the same boat as many here, we are pretty unsure how to plan $$$.$$$ investments in post and thats quite some money to us.

I posted the answer to this, but many seemed more interested to build a conspiracy theory instead of listening.

We had expected that "at or around NAB" (my exact words) we would be able to put out a public SDK. But the delays in image enhancements, including splitting them from Build 15 into Build 16, has delayed that event.

When we have finished and fully tested the final code, we will put out the public SDK. It is in our best interests, as well as our customers, to do that!

The longer it takes, the worse it is for everyone. We get that pretty clearly.

But forcing it out prematurely could only be described as apocalyptic.

Jim

 

[Jarred Land]

Easy to understand. Hard to explain to clients.

"You see, the folks that make the cameras are worried that the tools I want to use ......

......so I'm not allowed to have any tools just yet.

You got the first part kinda right, but the last part wrong. There are tools out there, not just the tools you personally want to use (yet).

 

[Deanan]

I choose:

4. That your partners sit on their hands, close their eyes and ears to the needs and demands of customers.

That is what everyone else besides Apple and Assimilate did for two years when they had the chance to work with us. Even after NAB last year and after the first shipments, there were still a few companies that were not interested working on a relationship.

 

[laguun]

Red knows how to listen and deliver. A skill sadly lacking with your partners. not your fault, just an unfortunate outcome of business sometimes.

I sadly have to agree. While assimilate has a good product, they fail on adapting reds almost revolutionary price/performance (and have no 4K display, but that is fully acceptable technical limitation). Apple has that price/performance, however fails to support the quality of the camera. catch 22.

 

[Jannard]

We are now taking a bunch of shit for releasing our cameras prematurely... even though we clearly warned early adopters of the "not finished yet" situation. Most listened, some did not. We are not about to go through the same thing again with 100 3rd party companies.

Jim

 

[Finner]

That is what they did for two years when they had the chance to work with us. Even after NAB last year and after the first shipments, there were still a few companies that were not interested working on a relationship.

So then the speculations of your partners doing this to you guys are all correct. I am sure everyone will be happy when the market is open and the poor partnership deal is way behind all of us.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

apple is a partner right?
do you know if apple will change something in FCS2 :
10 bit 444 RGB,
r3d support in Color?

this is just a question...

----edit:methinks finner is right

 

[Deanan]

You got the first part kinda right, but the last part wrong. There are tools out there, not just the tools you personally want to use (yet).

With way fewer tools and functionality than what we have today, Soderberg shot two features. Tools exist now. More tools are coming. Have a little patience... We've only been shipping for little more than 6 months.

 

[Deanan]

I sadly have to agree. While assimilate has a good product, they fail on adapting reds almost revolutionary price/performance (and have no 4K display, but that is fully acceptable technical limitation). Apple has that price/performance, however fails to support the quality of the camera. catch 22.

DVS, Quantel, Discreet, Baselight, Iridas, etc. are magically gonna drop their prices to a new revolutionary price point? I seriously doubt that.

 

[Deanan]

So then the speculations of your partners doing this to you guys are all correct. I am sure everyone will be happy when the market is open and the poor partnership deal is way behind all of us.

I am referring to everyone else but apple and assimilate who sat on their hands when the opportunity was wide open.
(edited for clarity

 

[laguun]

I posted the answer to this, but many seemed more interested to build a conspiracy theory instead of listening.

We had expected that "at or around NAB" (my exact words) we would be able to put out a public SDK. But the delays in image enhancements, including splitting them from Build 15 into Build 16, has delayed that event.

When we have finished and fully tested the final code, we will put out the public SDK. It is in our best interests, as well as our customers, to do that!

The longer it takes, the worse it is for everyone. We get that pretty clearly.

Thanks for the answer. Many of your customers are simply paranoid now, as they didnt know about the Apple/Assimilate exclusive phase 1), and have the feeling that red might go on with only these 2 or giving them an artificial advantage by slowing down the marketleaders - which would be really bad.

But forcing it out prematurely could only be described as apocalyptic.

Jim

I agree, and btw, i fully understand that you are honoring the support you got in the early stages. The main concern is simply that most of the people in the industry are still biased against red or are running into many issued when they test the camera neutral and then are hit by crashing FCPs with QT 7.4, loose their TC with their AVID, have redcine crashing on their ATI Fire systems etc. We, your customers, are quite depending on your success gaining the industries momentum, and the camera has done excellent in that aspect. Now, as many so skeptical people are starting to use red, i wish we could have more, and better, answers for their existing postproduction.

BTW: For shortforms (commercials/clips/packaging etc) the existing workflow can be explained - its the longform (fulleature/doc) crowd who is affected mainly by the limits of the actual workflow.

 

[laguun]

We are now taking a bunch of shit for releasing our cameras prematurely... even though we clearly warned early adopters of the "not finished yet" situation. Most listened, some did not. We are not about to go through the same thing again with 100 3rd party companies.

Jim

Ok, now thats really understandable.

 

[Eddie]

DVS, Quantel, Discreet, Baselight, Iridas, etc. are magically gonna drop their prices to a new revolutionary price point? I seriously doubt that.

Thats the reason everybody is bitchin about cineform/adobe not being let in, deanan...

They have the same aggressive price/performance attitude RED is imposing on the industry

 

[Joel Kaye]

One thing needs to be pointed out here... when we were still a scam, we rang the bell and only two companies answered. All others had absolutely no interest in supplying support for RED.

Just so you know...

That's a fair and helpful thing to remind us of. (Of course, a few hundred of us bellied up to the bar and wrote thousand dollar checks too). Early participation should be rewarded. I'd do the same.

The bottom line for everyone following along is RED knows the camera is more valuable when workflows become easier. We don't need to convince RED of that... they "get" it. They're doing their best. There's no rational reason they would delay anything that would help us. Ergo - we'll get it as fast as they feasilby can make it.

I think the announcement that you're trying to get RedCode Raw native support into a bunch of applications is something I wasn't aware of and makes me feel a lot better about where you're heading. The thought of pulling something off the RED drive and straight into Nuke is pretty exciting.

Maybe David should be programming a rendering engine for Adobe that accelerates Redcode....

 

[laguun]

DVS, Quantel, Discreet, Baselight, Iridas, etc. are magically gonna drop their prices to a new revolutionary price point? I seriously doubt that.

me too.

however:
iridas speedgrade HD is a 9.999€ product, working on osx and windows, is a pretty powerful DI system and supports -mixed- RAW and RGB workflow. Since months customers are asking assimilate to offer a redcode only. or HD only, or redcode and HD only or whatever only product to match this offering.

Adobe CS supports REDs quality, different from Apple FCS (which is cheaper and offer with color some more functionality).

and most important:
There are several hundreds of -already existing- DVS, Quantel, discreet, baselight, iridas systems here at customers.
I only know of less than 10 sold scratch systems in whole Germany.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

We are not about to go through the same thing again with 100 3rd party companies.

Makes perfect sense.

Now how do you justify locking out the hacker-types who want to make your camera work for them and ask for no support whatsoever from Red?

 

[jbeale]

how do you justify locking out the hacker-types who want to make your camera work for them and ask for no support whatsoever from Red?

Much as I'd like them to, I completely understand that it doesn't work that way. Any and all easily available tools can and will find their way into any and all Red workflows. Any problems with said tools will impact Red the company, unfair though that is to them. I wish it weren't that way, but it's clear to me that it is.

edit: ...once Redcode has stabilized and the mainstream workflows are established, I'd think the perception problem should be less of an issue (...of course, the actual need for any makeshift tools would likewise diminish).