Looking at Scratch? A little advice..

[Anthony Gratl]

I think once the R3D code is "free" and other third party jump on board and create better and cheaper tools, only then will Assimilate possibly consider a "light" version of their software...until then they have no competition and no reason to offer anything else. Really we have no reason to be angry at Assimilate, it's RED who made the decision to give exclusivity to one company and thus killing competition. Thank god this monopoly is coming to an end in April 08 and once the competing products come out, a lot of us will scratch this whole argument out of our minds... ;-)

What are you talking about? This monopoly isn't ending in april....read this....
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10057

EDIT: LUKI, this doesn't let assimilate off the hook to get us an affordable red only scratch system......it'll make or break assimilate, because hardware is getting faster all the time, and it's only a matter of time before a group of 20 somethings gangbang the next kickass program, and if you don't have our asses in seats and loyal, it's finito completo. That's why FCP is only 1200 bucks.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

I think there is a market for 'SCRATCH Light' but not having used SCRATCH (yet) I can't say what that might really mean...

However there's this weird thing that I've noticed, specifically with the RED camera, which could almost be called a sense of entitlement I guess. A friend of mine is very much like this...

The thing seems to be that many people feel that since the camera is affordable (compared to the alternatives, actually even compared to a Digibeta) that all the associated things should be equally affordable.

A friend shot a short film on borrowed 35mm cameras and associated kit, with donated stock. Spent relatively little, but then was shocked (and actually angry) when he came to the point where he was actually going to need to pay for processing and telecine...

It's kind of the same with the RED camera - people have the camera now, and some seem to expect that everything they want to do with it should be available with the same sort of pricing structure (although most people seem at peace with the cost of lenses for some reason?)

There is nothing consumer, or even prosumer about what the RED camera puts out. Untill a year or so ago 4K was absolutely the domain of studios and big budget productions. The tools for working with it represent that. SCRATCH can do what it takes to make RED sing, and thanks to their relationship with RED they can do it really well right now. But take DPXs into Baselight or Lustre or Pablo and it can make great pix too. But all of them have a price tag that represents their market. It may be over valued (as perhaps Avid was pre-DV and maybe even now) but that's not going to change overnight.

In the meantime the options that exist now are what they are, and none are especially unreasonable.

FWIW, SCRATCH is by far the best priced DI system I've seen a quote for.

Also, contrary to Jay's original assertion, it's been my experience that in this industry (at least in high-end post) no one will compromise price to secure a sale. Although some will sweeten the deal with a plugin or two, or extra support, I've not seen the actual price drop in response to quotes from competitors. Companies know what they competitors charge, and they set their prices with full awareness of that.

 

[laguun]

FWIW, SCRATCH is by far the best priced DI system I've seen a quote for.

I think the price is driven by color at $1300 with FCS, the matrix tools and iridas speedgrade HD at 9.999€. scratch has an mid price, and offers good functionality, discreet and quantel charge additional for their highly recognized brands. We expect to see 4K online editing (adobe cineform) with 2K monitoring in the $$$$ range within the next months, and we also suppose that 2K/1080p editing with color correction will be basic functionality. "DI" is basically colorcorrection, basic editing and interfacing/networking on desktop software. The expensive parts are filmscanner and filmrecorder, and i dont see a huge sales volume for newcomers in that market anymore.

Also, contrary to Jay's original assertion, it's been my experience that in this industry (at least in high-end post) no one will compromise price to secure a sale. Although some will sweeten the deal with a plugin or two, or extra support, I've not seen the actual price drop in response to quotes from competitors. Companies know what they competitors charge, and they set their prices with full awareness of that.

we have been buying sony hdcam, discreet systems, yamaha audio gear etc with usually 20-40% off list prices, and have been endorsed by several companies.

 

[M Most]

LUKI, this doesn't let assimilate off the hook to get us an affordable red only scratch system......it'll make or break assimilate, because hardware is getting faster all the time, and it's only a matter of time before a group of 20 somethings gangbang the next kickass program, and if you don't have our asses in seats and loyal, it's finito completo. That's why FCP is only 1200 bucks.

You seem quite unaware of two things. First, Scratch has been around quite a bit longer than Red has. Their market is the general DI and data management world, centered around film work. The vast, vast majority of their seats were sold before Red showed up, and are used for what they were always used for: film work. Second, in that world, Red is still just a blip on the radar. At least 85% of feature film work is still done on film, about 14% is done on either the Sony F900, F950, or the Genesis, and the other 1% or so on "something else," which at the moment means anything from DV to HDV to Red. If Assimilate's entire business was Red dependent, there wouldn't be a business, at least not at this point in time. Your statement is typical of many who post here and have little experience in the "real" film industry, and seem to feel that existing companies servicing that industry are abandoning everything they have and know in favor of Red, which is simply not the case. Nor is it the case that material shot on Red can't be finished on anything other than Scratch. Assimilate has a good product and a nice niche in the industry. They have for a while now. Creation of a cheap "Red" product is not going to "make or break" them except in the eyes of those who think everything should be priced like Apple Color (i.e., free).

 

[David Birdy]

My 2 cents

I think the intent of this thread is to point out the need for a work-flow that is in line with the camera price...A revolutionary camera needs a revolutionary post work-flow counter part! We have FCP and it works... but we are ready for a 4K work-flow at an affordable price point.

Jim and Red team are very aware of this.. Yes RED One is a blip on the radar right now, but after over 20 years in this business I have never witnesses a more intense blimp. If this camera was not a threat to other manufactures why are they so intent on putting out negative press and other tactics that I will not mention here...?

Jim & Red team have delivered what MOST “Industry Professionals” labeled as vaporware or a fraud...let's see what happens in NAB 2008... I have high hopes.

It's a free market and Luci has the right to charge what he believes his product to be worth, as the customer we have the right to except it or reject it. Let's not "get down" on him or anyone on this forum....this forum is about learning.


Dave

 

[Anthony Gratl]

You seem quite unaware of two things. First, Scratch has been around quite a bit longer than Red has. Their market is the general DI and data management world, centered around film work. The vast, vast majority of their seats were sold before Red showed up, and are used for what they were always used for: film work. Second, in that world, Red is still just a blip on the radar. At least 85% of feature film work is still done on film, about 14% is done on either the Sony F900, F950, or the Genesis, and the other 1% or so on "something else," which at the moment means anything from DV to HDV to Red. If Assimilate's entire business was Red dependent, there wouldn't be a business, at least not at this point in time.

I'm aware that Scratch has been around for awhile.
Sorry Red isn't a blip on the radar mmost, unless you're radar is pointed at a mirror. I'm having conversations with people about red who don't even shoot or work in the industry of moving pictures.
As far as assimilate's business model, I would assume that the vp for sales is spending alot of time here on this board because that's where they see their model shifting to, and expanding their business. And that's at this point in time. And my comment is my p.o.v. on how to expand that business. How many seats do they have compared to the other DI solutions out there? I heard 100 seats, maybe 150. Think they want a few more out of the potential 5000 redusers in the immediate future?

Your statement is typical of many who post here and have little experience in the "real" film industry, and seem to feel that existing companies servicing that industry are abandoning everything they have and know in favor of Red, which is simply not the case. Nor is it the case that material shot on Red can't be finished on anything other than Scratch. Assimilate has a good product and a nice niche in the industry. They have for a while now. Creation of a cheap "Red" product is not going to "make or break" them except in the eyes of those who think everything should be priced like Apple Color (i.e., free).

I frankly resent your putdowns, and I'm biting my tongue a little bit as I type.
What do you know of my experience?
My statement is typical of a younger generation of filmmakers, people who didn't grow up with slow technological gains, and comes from the perspective that the industry is shifting quickly. And is going to bury a lot of companies. And I like the scratch interface, it's capabilities, and luki's candid and open conversation on the board, which makes me like the product. I don't need cheap, I like cheap, but I don't need expensive either. And I'm handing luki an opinion, which is in part what this board is about. And if he's smart he'll take it. :whistling:
And i'm also aware that you can finish on something other than scratch. Thanks for that shining piece of knowledge. Here's my own. Colour isn't free. It's packaged with FCS 2, which costs munee.

As to the comment that I'm not in the "real" film industry; I must be living in my own little fantasyland of filmmaking here. Can I aspire to be in your world please, where we can kvetch about how the younger generation doesn't understand anything, and you get to gladhand a bunch of people whose crap you get to service with a big grin on your face. Or are you the big kahuna in your pond, where you can remark freely on the fact that it's mostly garbage coming through the door?
And what do you mean by the "real" industry? Do you mean documentary filmmaking, where films are based on REAL events? Because if that's what you mean, i've gone all over the world shooting, directing, and editing in that genre. But methinks that you're talking of the "real" film industry of make-believe, where you get to smile alot and pretend that this latest P.O.S. that you get to oversee really means something in the grand scheme of things. I've worked in that one too, I guess just not as long as you have.

Play nice dude. You don't have all the answers and neither do I. That's the premise behind collectivism on this board. And your remarks are reticent of the old world, the elitism of filmmaking, that my fifteen years of working behind the camera, in the edit suite, and producing, both in film and television, have taught me is a ladder with broken rungs. I like bridges.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I'm aware that Scratch has been around for awhile.
Sorry Red isn't a blip on the radar mmost, unless you're radar is pointed at a mirror. I'm having conversations with people about red who don't even shoot or work in the industry of moving pictures.
As far as assimilate's business model, I would assume that the vp for sales is spending alot of time here on this board because that's where they see their model shifting to, and expanding their business. And that's at this point in time. And my comment is my p.o.v. on how to expand that business. How many seats do they have compared to the other DI solutions out there? I heard 100 seats, maybe 150. Think they want a few more out of the potential 5000 redusers in the immediate future?



I frankly resent your putdowns, and I'm biting my tongue a little bit as I type.
What do you know of my experience?
My statement is typical of a younger generation of filmmakers, people who didn't grow up with slow technological gains, and comes from the perspective that the industry is shifting quickly. And is going to bury a lot of companies. And I like the scratch interface, it's capabilities, and luki's candid and open conversation on the board, which makes me like the product. I don't need cheap, I like cheap, but I don't need expensive either. And I'm handing luki an opinion, which is in part what this board is about. And if he's smart he'll take it. :whistling:
And i'm also aware that you can finish on something other than scratch. Thanks for that shining piece of knowledge. Here's my own. Colour isn't free. It's packaged with FCS 2, which costs munee.

As to the comment that I'm not in the "real" film industry; I must be living in my own little fantasyland of filmmaking here. Can I aspire to be in your world please, where we can kvetch about how the younger generation doesn't understand anything, and you get to gladhand a bunch of people whose crap you get to service with a big grin on your face. Or are you the big kahuna in your pond, where you can remark freely on the fact that it's mostly garbage coming through the door?
And what do you mean by the "real" industry? Do you mean documentary filmmaking, where films are based on REAL events? Because if that's what you mean, i've gone all over the world shooting, directing, and editing in that genre. But methinks that you're talking of the "real" film industry of make-believe, where you get to smile alot and pretend that this latest P.O.S. that you get to oversee really means something in the grand scheme of things.

Play nice dude. You don't have all the answers and neither do I. That's the premise behind collectivism on this board. And your remarks are reticent of the old world, the elitism of filmmaking, that my fifteen years of working behind the camera, in the edit suite, and producing, both in film and television, have taught me is a ladder with broken rungs. I like bridges.

well said

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Think back 10 years or so to when DV was just starting to make a little bit of a splash. At that stage there was not really any post workflow to support it properly. The price of the post tools was way higher, comparatively, than the camera. FCP didn't exist, Avid didn't support DV and cost heaps, Premiere was clunky and didn't support DV.

People figured out their own solutions and the market started to adapt to the demand. But it didn't happen overnight. And even so, the stretch from existing post options to DV - where the frame sizes were basically the same, the bit depth was basically the same and data rates were good.

RED is the same in some ways. It's new and untested and an unknown quantity to most of the market. They'll be watching it, but even if they wanted to, they can't just swing everything around to center on RED - it's a drastic change. Look at FCP - they're on the inside, but they still can't really embrace RED fully. Timeline playback is iffy at best, 2K is about the best you can do, no straight workflow to Color, no native integration with REDCINE for pull lists.

Assimilate had a headstart in that they were already working in a world that's closer to RED - they had 4K tools. Integrating RED posed less challenge, but still it's only a very small part of their market and they can't just become whatever the RED users say they should be.

Things will change, but it's necessary to understand now that it's a really big shift from the status quo, and you can't expect everything straight away.

Right now 4K workflow still remains in the domain of the studios really. You've sort of been let in the back door a little with the RED. If you want the 4K tools now you'll have to step up to where it is now, or you'll have to wait until it comes to you.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

If you want the 4K tools now you'll have to step up to where it is now, or you'll have to wait until it comes to you.

Dear Dylan,
If I wait for things to come to me, I'll be very alone......and as a filmmaker it's intrinsically not in my nature to wait.
Peace

 

[M Most]

Sorry Red isn't a blip on the radar mmost, unless you're radar is pointed at a mirror. I'm having conversations with people about red who don't even shoot or work in the industry of moving pictures.

And how many of those people own digital intermediate facilities, which is what I referred to? Allow me to quote my original post:

"...majority of their seats were sold before Red showed up, and are used for what they were always used for: film work. Second, in that world, Red is still just a blip on the radar."

In THAT world. The DI world. Assimilate's world. Not necessarily the WHOLE world.

I frankly resent your putdowns, and I'm biting my tongue a little bit as I type.

You're not biting it very hard. ;-)

My statement is typical of a younger generation of filmmakers, people who didn't grow up with slow technological gains, and comes from the perspective that the industry is shifting quickly.

And you don't think that those of us who have been around that industry also see rapid technological change? It's my job to deal with technological change and actually to stay ahead of the curve. It also has nothing to do with what I said - which was to point out that the existing business does not consist of Red projects (although there may be one or two) it consists primarily of film projects. If you want, you can look at the current roster of DI projects at Efilm, Technicolor, Company 3, and just about every other DI facility and discover this to be true. You were advising Assimilate to form a business plan around something that at the moment represents very little business for them. And claiming that failure to do so will "break" them. I was pointing out that this is not realistic, sound, business thinking.

And I'm handing luki an opinion, which is in part what this board is about.

You're not just offering an opinion. You're claiming some sort of entitlement to cheap stuff. To quote your first post:

"LUKI, this doesn't let assimilate off the hook to get us an affordable red only scratch system......it'll make or break assimilate"

Let them off the hook? Since when do they owe you or anyone else here anything? And since when is it up to people who aren't even their customers to decide what's going to sell and what isn't? Or to determine their price points?

Colour isn't free. It's packaged with FCS 2, which costs munee.

Final Cut Studio costs the same as it did prior to the inclusion of Color, which is not sold as a standalone product. Therefore, it is included for "free." And considering that probably 75% or more of the people buying Reds use Final Cut, it is essentially "free" for all of those users.

Can I aspire to be in your world please, where we can kvetch about how the younger generation doesn't understand anything...

Gee, I'm sorry for being an adult. And I'm sorry for bringing some real world facts into these pronouncements about how companies with existing products should release cheaper versions simply because another company with a different, but related product (i.e., Red) is charging less for theirs.

And what do you mean by the "real" industry?

I mean the post production industry that services the digital intermediate market - i.e., the market that Assimilate services, because that's what's being discussed - Assimilate.

But methinks that you're talking of the "real" film industry of make-believe, where you get to smile alot and pretend that this latest P.O.S. that you get to oversee really means something in the grand scheme of things. I've worked in that one too, I guess just not as long as you have.

I never said anything about importance, social value, or any grand schemes. I made my comments based on the market for the company whose product you're talking about.

Play nice dude.

I'd ask that you take that advice as well.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Dear Dylan,
If I wait for things to come to me, I'll be very alone......and as a filmmaker it's intrinsically not in my nature to wait.
Peace

Well, there are two options then...

Pay the asking price for what works now, or;
Figure out your own way with what is available to you.

With the tools that exist currently, you *can* get to where you want, but it's going to be inefficient and will probably take quite a lot of trial and error.

Besides, what are you going to do with a 4K finished product anyway? 1080 is deliverable and usable. 4K is useless without a fantastically expensive projector, or a film-out (and then a projector)...

 

[Lucas Wilson]

...I would assume that the vp for sales is spending alot of time here on this board because that's where they see their model shifting to, and expanding their business. ... Think they want a few more out of the potential 5000 redusers in the immediate future?

First of all, while I appreciate the promotion, I'm not the VP of Sales. I'm the Director of Business Development or the Director of West Coast/AsiaPacific Sales - depending on the day and the meeting I'm in.

But the real reason for my response is your mention of the potential 5000 redusers in the immediate future.

Here's the thing ... and feel free to disagree and discuss this point, because it's been going around in my head for awhile now ... Most of the RED customer base are DPs. Camera people. Shooters. Not post-production professionals.

Ask yourself - how many of those people are going to spend more than a few thousand dollars for *any* post production tool? I don't think that number is very large. I compare it to my attitude. I'm a post guy. I live and breathe this industry, but I'm a post guy. For whatever reason, I've never really had the desire to be a shooter. The number of dollars I'll spend for a camera - any camera - is a few thousand at the absolute maximum. I think the reverse is true of camera professionals.

So tell me - how big do you think the market for any post-production tool above $5K REALLY is for the majority of the RED customer base??

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Joel Kaye]

So tell me - how big do you think the market for any post-production tool above $5K REALLY is for the majority of the RED customer base??

I don't 'bout that, but I do know 1000 users at $1,000 is a million dollars. Guess that's chump change, but whatever... it'll motivate some developer out there I suppose.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

First of all, while I appreciate the promotion, I'm not the VP of Sales. I'm the Director of Business Development or the Director of West Coast/AsiaPacific Sales - depending on the day and the meeting I'm in.

Come on Luki... "Boss of the World!"

Here's the thing ... and feel free to disagree and discuss this point, because it's been going around in my head for awhile now ... Most of the RED customer base are DPs. Camera people. Shooters. Not post-production professionals.

Ask yourself - how many of those people are going to spend more than a few thousand dollars for *any* post production tool? I don't think that number is very large. I compare it to my attitude. I'm a post guy. I live and breathe this industry, but I'm a post guy. For whatever reason, I've never really had the desire to be a shooter. The number of dollars I'll spend for a camera - any camera - is a few thousand at the absolute maximum. I think the reverse is true of camera professionals.

There is a weird thing happening with RED. It's blurring the lines a bit I think. I know DPs now who are much more willing to start looking at their post options, and I know companies that by rights are Post houses that have bought or are considering buy RED cameras.

But, that said, you're right. Many (most?) of the RED camera owners probably don't have a need for a post solution of their own... However there are a million (maybe less?) smaller post houses out there who do want something. The big boys already have their SCRATCH or Baselight or Pablo seats, but the smaller places (the Post equivalent of many RED owners perhaps?) would like a way in. They can probably do without realtime. And they'll probably never need to do 4K out, but a good workflow for conforming 2K or even 1080 from RED 4K is very desirable for that group.

I work at one of those small places (and I've worked at one of the big ones) and I know people at a few more of the small ones. And I'm certain that if a light version of SCRATCH was available, with restricted functionality (2K output limit, and whatever else) for a couple of grand, then that would be a real proposition.

I think some people are limiting their scope when thinking of the RED camera to just it's owners, but there are many many people around who want/need to support the RED without being an owner. So while there may only be 3500 cameras or something by years end, there'll be many many more individuals and businesses who have their own demands and interests when it comes to RED.

To sum up. I really think there is a market for a more 'basic' version of SCRATCH for this market (and even for other HD stuff). An HD/2K-only version of SCRATCH has legs, I reckon.

Luki - how about this - if you (Assimilate) make a cut-down version of SCRATCH that can do RED and HD for under US$3500 I promise I personally will buy a copy. That's one sale - figure out how many more it would take to tip the cost/benefit scale in our favour and tell us - maybe there's enough market right here?

 

[Seth Larney]

I just wanted to add, as another opinion to Jay's original post :

I went to Lucas to help me put together a Scratch package and I openly told him that it was for for a RED-centric pipeline - and I don't regret it one bit.

Cheers,
S.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Luki - how about this - if you (Assimilate) make a cut-down version of SCRATCH that can do RED and HD for under US$3500 I promise I personally will buy a copy. That's one sale - figure out how many more it would take to tip the cost/benefit scale in our favour and tell us - maybe there's enough market right here?

i would buy one too

 

[Priit Poldmaa]

Count me too.

Priit

 

[Anthony Gratl]

First of all, while I appreciate the promotion, I'm not the VP of Sales. I'm the Director of Business Development or the Director of West Coast/AsiaPacific Sales - depending on the day and the meeting I'm in.

Well if you can push this request through the necessary hoops, trust me, you'll be the vp of whatever you want to be, because you'll knock it out of the park. And other than that, hell, I'll give you another promotion. Senior V-P Sales.

But the real reason for my response is your mention of the potential 5000 redusers in the immediate future.

Here's the thing ... and feel free to disagree and discuss this point, because it's been going around in my head for awhile now ... Most of the RED customer base are DPs. Camera people. Shooters. Not post-production professionals.

Well, I dunno Luki. Seems to me there are a lot of hybrids in this group. Lots of camera people posting about post experiences, lots of producers who are fully involved in the tech and software issue side of things.....i think that part of the ethos of the Red revolution is that we as endusers are being cracked open to explore the other elements of the production process.
Myself, I'm from post, but I taught myself to shoot on betacam first, and then directed. And then spent a decade cutting at the same time.

Ask yourself - how many of those people are going to spend more than a few thousand dollars for *any* post production tool? I don't think that number is very large. I compare it to my attitude. I'm a post guy. I live and breathe this industry, but I'm a post guy. For whatever reason, I've never really had the desire to be a shooter. The number of dollars I'll spend for a camera - any camera - is a few thousand at the absolute maximum. I think the reverse is true of camera professionals.

I disagree with you on this. Red camera owners have to prove to people that the post workflow works. Not only that, but I see a lot of people on this board who are part of a production group proding the workflow. Even if you're right and the board is mostly shooters, surely the shooters aren't keeping the scratch workflow possibility to themselves. They're going back to their respective groups and clients and saying "hey guys these are our options as far as I can tell". And then saying "so Yoda (random name choice), cutter man, why don't you take the ball at this point and keep researching the post flow" to which Yoda replies "there is no try, only do" and looks at the options. I promise you that if he finds a RT finishing system for $3500 that will do some nice things to the 4K image and output in HD, it's on the list FOR SURE!!

So tell me - how big do you think the market for any post-production tool above $5K REALLY is for the majority of the RED customer base??

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

The market is huge for this particular $3500 post production tool dude!!! Huge. All of these Red Users, outside of the ones already partnered in one, have relationships with post houses. All of them. The camera ops have become salespeople for the camera in order to sell it's post workflow viability. You walk into a post house and say, look you've got these options and one of them is a 3500 dollar unit that outputs HD and CC's in real time with an excellent data management system, it's sold. Period. You're talking thousands of post houses that will use scratch for finishing and HD output. You can re-invent the market model....low cost, "lower" output DI. CC in realtime with excellent GUI in-house? EVERYONE would buy into that for sure. It's a total value added for clients and the house, as you can bill a little more (but not much, cause it's not cool to be greedy) and it's nice to make people happier with the look of their project.
And once you push 15000 units out the door worldwide in short order, you, Mr. Wilson, are a technological and marketing superhero to us and whoever's cutting your paycheque.


EDIT: Oh, I'm down for one too. Paypal?

 

[sparkhope]

Interesting thread - I gotta ask. Given the resistance Assimilate is showing to create a more affordable DI suite for the independent shooter/producer - does anyone see Adobe as a potential stop gap? What would be needed? Does RED have to create a plug-in for Adobe or is this something that a 3rd party would have to do? Vis-a-vis a RED SDK (once released)? Sorry I'm not too savvy with the world of s/w development and the such. Is it possible that Adobe Master Collection CS3 could deal with R3D files (someday)? Or is this a pipe dream? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Peace out.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

There is no Adobe DI app..

Hans