Looking at Scratch? A little advice..

[Jay A. Kelley]

First this is nothing against Luki...

I could be wrong on what I am about to type and I am SURE Luki won't like it and will tell me how I am wrong, but as a customer and REDUser I want to point out something that occurred to me regarding a purchase of Scratch.

If any of you are thinking of buying a SCRATCH system for RED, I would STRONGLY suggest NOT telling them this when you get your quotes. I would tell them it's for a typical camera and you are looking at a number of D.I. suites.

You see, SCRATCH has no competiion in the RED area... And while this is great for SCRATCH, it does not bode well for the customer looking for the best bang for their buck.

If it were me, I would get my quotes from Luki and every other DI suite I am looking at and let them know I am looking around, and price will matter. Just like you NORMALLY WOULD.

Bottom line, vendors will drop their prices to get business, but they won't if they know you have no where else to go. So don't play in that field, just say it's for a camera or format that a number of suites can support. Once you have the best number possible from SCRATCH THEN tell them you are planning to use a RED. If the prices stays the same, cool, you KNOW you have the best available rate for what you are buying, bit if they say it's more cause you are using RED, then you will know that too, and you can make your own decisions.

For the record, I am NOT saying that Luki and the boys are overcharging, and I don't know all the details. But I understand basic business, and whenever a vendor has something that people need, and he has no competition, you can bet his prices will reflect that fact.

My job is to get the best rate I can, and sadly, RED has created a situation where that is very difficult where editing and DI are concerned.

I know what it's like to try to survive in this business, and I want to help, so that's why I put this post up.

Jay

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Jay,

Sorry man - but while your premise has some validity in a pure "Harvard MBA Case Study" sense, you're missing some things.

Let me ask questions a slightly different way:

1) If we try to gouge people now in some way, when R3D is supported by everyone, do you think it's more likely or less likely that people will come to us?

2) If we are fair today and behave pretty much like we always have, would it be more likely or less likely that we will do well when everyone supports R3D?

3) There are a lot of people on this forum that can testify to the fact that we work hard with them to bring them SCRATCH if they want it - regardless of our R3D support.

Gouging is never, ever a good strategy, and is always short-sighted.

The truth of the situation is that - regardless of the wailing and gnashing of teeth on this forum - there *are* working workflows for RED that have nothing to do with SCRATCH. I'm in LA, and I see it every day. Do I believe SCRATCH is the best solution for RED workflow? Well yeah, of course I do.

But we do not have enough of a "lock" on things that it precludes everyone else. Far from it. And that means fairly normal rules apply. Also - nobody buys a system like SCRATCH *exclusively* for RED workflow. Just doesn't happen.

You want to talk about a lock? Try sticking an HDCAM tape into a non-Sony device. THAT is a lock.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Allan Stallard]

When comparing Scratch fully blown out to another DI suite like Lustre it seems like a steal! I realize they are not identical products, but certainly comparable...

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

One I NEVER said Gougeing.. YOU DID.. I was thinking more along the lines of "retail price" verses "Wholesale price"

Also think about this from an end result standpoint: If you are right, then what difference does it make what camera system they are using, correct? You are going to get them the best deal out there..

So this is a non-issue, right?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

to be honest i would understand that a lot of people get angry if scratch would lower their price...and if they do, they would never have the possibility to go back to their price ( and its cheaper then the other big guys)


Scratch is definitly cool...
i dont want a scratch light/Prepost. cant justify the price for myself.
Scratch is not for us folks, never supposed to be.

But we are thousands, who wants a redcine Pro.
Even the guys with their speedgrades, pablos etc.
This could be another Product in Assimiliates Portfolio.
And it would make them bigger.
Hey, you are giving us redcine for free and you can handle the support demand (frozen quicktime has to be resolved, big lebowski will help you)

So you would have your scratch suites,
your prepost cubes,
redcine pro
and redcine

And you can make some bucks until the moment the code is free.

this would be a nice solution.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

One I NEVER said Gougeing.. YOU DID.. I was thinking more along the lines of "retail price" verses "Wholesale price"

Also think about this from an end result standpoint: If you are right, then what difference does it make what camera system they are using, correct? You are going to get them the best deal out there..

So this is a non-issue, right?

Right.

Lucas

 

[M.Halsell]

Why do people get angry when they can't afford stuff? I never quite understood that.

 

[josh]

Right.

Lucas

Excellent.

We know that 17,500 is the body of RED, right? and it's never the ending price. Jim is not afraid of publishing this number.

So why can't you tell the price of the basic package?

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Excellent.

We know that 17,500 is the body of RED, right? and it's never the ending price. Jim is not afraid of publishing this number.

So why can't you tell the price of the basic package?

For the record, this has nothing to do with my post.



Jay

 

[Lucas Wilson]

For the record, this has nothing to do with my post.



Jay

LOL.

Lucas

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Why do people get angry when they can't afford stuff? I never quite understood that.

i remember you are the guy with his own Sony F23 or was it Dalsa,D20...or Quantel or Davinci...what was it again?

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Why do people get angry when they can't afford stuff? I never quite understood that.

I'm not sure, but maybe because:

it make them feel like failures for not being successful enough to afford it?

they think if only they had X their work would be better. So the company defining the price point beyond them is stopping them do well?

I personally have noticed myself getting annoyed irrationally if there is a product that is very close in its feature set to one I want, but not enough to justify the expense.. I delude myself into thinking what I want is what everyone should want..

Michael

PS I'm not saying anyone is a failure... apart from me for not having a baselight 8 and a full set of masterprimes.

 

[M Most]

i remember you are the guy with his own Sony F23 or was it Dalsa,D20...or Quantel or Davinci...what was it again?

What difference does it make what he may or may not own? His point was completely valid and true. And if anyone thought it wasn't, your response just validated it.

 

[Andrew M.]

to be honest i would understand that a lot of people get angry if scratch would lower their price...and if they do, they would never have the possibility to go back to their price ( and its cheaper then the other big guys)

You could lock the SCRATCH Light to work only with REDRAW so it will not pissoff the studios and large post houses.

Luki, did you talk to your bosses about Scratch Light down in the HQs?

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Excellent.

We know that 17,500 is the body of RED, right? and it's never the ending price. Jim is not afraid of publishing this number.

So why can't you tell the price of the basic package?

WTF is up with people and all the bashing? First of all, you can do a search in this sub-forum and find the price. If you are serious about a Scratch seat, send luki or nacho at assimilateinc.com an e-mail. It's that easy.

Jay, you are spreading so much FUD on the boards today. I encourage you, in respect, to sit down for a while and relax. You are not contributing to the community or revolution or what ever you want to call it. Quite the opposite.

Regards,
Fredrik

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

What difference does it make what he may or may not own? His point was completely valid and true. And if anyone thought it wasn't, your response just validated it.

do you know what...
people get angry if something that they need is expensive or is not existent

I dont care if a system is 1000 000 USD even if this system would be delivered with a 3 headed human clone.

But i care if i need a tool for my red....thats the whole point.
a dp wants to make money with his cam without needing a posthouse in the garage...an editor wants to do his job without needing a posthouse in the garage.....and this in the most easiest/comfortable way.
i am not asking for scratch for 5k(this is my 6th post that this would be a fatale move for assimiliate...)
i dont know if you are running a buisness or if you are just an employee, but you should think a little.
Not everything is black and white.
Its far more difficult.

____________________________________
back to topic....congrats to all scratch owners, you have a damn nice thing.
but i dont need it @home.
I need a redcine pro or something like that.
Maybe lucas can tell us a little about wht he thinks about a Redcine Pro.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

PS I'm not saying anyone is a failure... apart from me for not having a baselight 8 and a full set of masterprimes.

me too

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

WTF is up with people and all the bashing? First of all, you can do a search in this sub-forum and find the price. If you are serious about a Scratch seat, send luki or nacho at assimilateinc.com an e-mail. It's that easy.

Jay, you are spreading so much FUD on the boards today. I encourage you, in respect, to sit down for a while and relax. You are not contributing to the community or revolution or what ever you want to call it. Quite the opposite.

Regards,
Fredrik

Fredrick, with all due respect I do not need you to tell me what I do or do not need to say, I've been here a while and I have been working with my camera a while (I see you are number 2000+...You'll get yours... Someday).

There is a long history with some of this stuff, and I am fairly confident you have not taken the time to research it. If you had, then you would certainly know my remarks today were a LONG time coming. There is also a lot going on OUTSIDE the formum you may not be aware of.

There are people on this forum that I will listen to when I am getting "out of hand", but at this time, you are not one of them.

If you goal was in fact to help (Which I cannot say, from reading another post you made directed at me) then I would say "thank you" but I have it under control.

Have a nice day

Jay

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Fredrick, with all due respect I do not need you to tell me what I do or do not need to say, I've been here a while and I have been working with my camera a while (I see you are number 2000+...You'll get yours... Someday).

There is a long history with some of this stuff, and I am fairly confident you have not taken the time to research it. If you had, then you would certainly know my remarks today were a LONG time coming.

There are people on this forum that I will listen to when I am getting "out of hand", but at this time, you are not one of them.

Have a nice day

Jay

Jay.

I've been following your threads since the time you got your camera and I know your remarks have a background. If your workflow issues, and I know what they are, gives you the right to be insulting or to imply that RED as a company can no longer be trusted, well that is your judgement. Your posts in the now closed Tiered Partners... thread is actually what made me react, you calmed down on the SCRATCH pricing conspiracy quite quickly

I research a lot regarding all aspects of the RED ONE, including workflows. I have already shot and posted several commercials for nationwide broadcast with the RED ONE if that matters to you. Your post seemed to indicate just that. Not that I can see how it matters.

You post on a public forum. If your personal opinions are only meant to be read or commented on by "people on this forum that I will listen to when I am getting "out of hand", you shouldn't.

Best regards,
Fredrik

EDIT: You edited in that I made another post directed at you. When was that?

I meant my first post to be interpreted in the best possible manner. It seemed that you were saying things you possibly didn't mean. But you state again that you have everything under control. So I'll leave you alone after this.

One more thing: Do you think it was a good thing that the discussion got so out of hand that they closed down the Tiered Partners... thread? You have always stood up for yourself and what you want out of this camera and I respect you for that. But you starting this thread here and also pretty much called Jim Jannard and his entire company liars in one day. It made me react. Sorry.

 

[M Most]

a dp wants to make money with his cam without needing a posthouse in the garage...an editor wants to do his job without needing a posthouse in the garage.....and this in the most easiest/comfortable way.

Well, DP's never had a posthouse in their garage before Red. And editors never had posthouses in their garages, either. DP's have shot for many, many years without "needing" to be post vendors as well. What's being talked about here is the notion of entitlement - that everything should be easily available and cheap, and that everyone is entitled to have it. Which is also what's being questioned.