Focusing on 720P. I need your help/Advice...

[Daniel Browning]

Are you familiar with how autofocus systems [in, say, an SLR] actually work? It's not the sort of thing that can just be enabled with software. There's actually a second sensor in SLRs for focus.

The Nikon D3 can autofocus with the mirror up using edge contrast right off the sensor.

 

[Finner]

......

 

[Michael Lindsay]

stop off to check focus

stop off to check focus

I may have missed this and it has already been discussed:

The option to replace the white balance button with another focus aid.. If this button could use shutter angle (to exposure compensate) to allow the Focus puller to take the stop off and still see a usable image on the monitor and EVF. Releasing the button would take off the compensation and encourage you to put the stop back on.. This with the zoom in function would would work well before and after a take..

Anyone else think this is missing?

 

[Joel Kaye]

basic production 101 stuff we are talking here and if this is over peoples abilities then they are in for a world of hurt when they try and focus pull with a red.

I don't think people here are saying you're not going to have to set up your lenses and verify they are accurate. At least I hope not.

Having a 1:1 magnify would be a very helpful way to constantly monitor that your lens actually is set up right.

 

[Finner]

......

 

[Joel Kaye]

but for any professional narrative shoots focus puller is mandatory. I would like to see you in the situation mentioned above and see if you would stick to your statement that "its not that tough".

Geez, calm down. I'm not going to throw a 135mm wide open with 2 inches of DOF on Tom Cruise and try to track him on his motorcycle and operate at the same time. Bigger shoots are always going to have more qualified crews - well I guess yours didn't - but that's your problem, not mine.

When I say "not that tough" I mean it's something many can practice at and get good at over time.

In lower budget, lower pressure, destined for DVD projects you could choose wider angles and smaller apertures you can give yourself a fighting chance at focus.

Anyway - one reason I wanted to own the camera is precisely to be able practice with it every day. I don't think anyone gets good at a musical instrument by renting it for the weekend every couple of months. Give me a few hundred hours of practice and we'll see how things are looking.

As much as some people want it different truthfully in the end a simple steel or nylon measuring tape is the by far the best focus tool for the job.

Yeah, and I've got a couple in my bag as well as a laser range finder. I'm not saying eliminate ANY tool.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Just my two cents on focus -
Every shoot I have worked, we check the lenses on prep day AND every production day, first thing, before breakfast. If we're shooting HD, we check back focus daily as well and sometimes right after lunch (damn heat).
Every AC I know has a focus chart in their kit and uses them on every job.

Another two cents point - The RED is a PROFESSIONAL level camera. Period. Owning/renting/using this camera is NOT going to make you into a better DP, filmmaker, anything. Hope those of you who are purchasing this camera have real world experience with something other than prosumer cameras.

Again, just my two cents.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Owning/renting/using this camera is NOT going to make you into a better DP, filmmaker, anything.

Ok, I'll bite. If using a camera doesn't help then what's the way to get better?

Luckily, 35mm still photography is NOT the same as filmmaking in this regard. I use to manage a camera store and I can promise you a lot of people got a lot better at photography AFTER they bought a camera. Totally crazy, I know, but I'm telling you I saw it with my own eyes. Knock me over with a feather.

Strangely, after I bought my guitar I got a lot better at that too.

 

[Dan McCain]

Geez, calm down. I'm not going to throw a 135mm wide open with 2 inches of DOF on Tom Cruise and try to track him on his motorcycle and operate at the same time. Bigger shoots are always going to have more qualified crews - well I guess yours didn't - but that's your problem, not mine.

I am clam. It just makes you sound like a Monday morning quarterback to say the job of a focus puller "isnt that hard". And of course people may learn it with practice (Isnt it that way with everything in life), but most good focus pullers dont learn their job by looking at a monitor. Having a 1:1 display on the Monitor will be fine for checking the focus of an inanimate object but once your subjects are in motion you have to rely on a different skill set to do it properly. All these tools are great and im looking forward to seeing what comes in the future but I don't believe there will be a "magic" solution anytime soon that will replace a focus puller for 35mm lenses.

The point of mentioning last weekends shoot was how wrong things can go when you don't have someone dedicated to pulling focus.

I encourage you to go out and learn all you can about focus pulling from experienced 1 s.t. A.C.s. Every time I meet an experienced first I pick his brain about tips and tricks of pulling focus.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Ok, I'll bite. If using a camera doesn't help then what's the way to get better?

Luckily, 35mm still photography is NOT the same as filmmaking in this regard. I use to manage a camera store and I can promise you a lot of people got a lot better at photography AFTER they bought a camera. Totally crazy, I know, but I'm telling you I saw it with my own eyes. Knock me over with a feather.

Strangely, after I bought my guitar I got a lot better at that too.

What I mean is - using a superior camera doesn't automatically make you a better anything.
But you are correct, the more one does something, the better they get. It just seems to me that a lot of users are under the impression that the gear makes the "filmmaker".

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Has anyone watched these? I think they are pretty good. Gives you an idea of the challenges you can face and how a really good AC can make or break a production.

http://www.freshdv.com/2007/10/follow-focus-reviews-and-1st-ac-tutorial-roundup.html

 

[Joel Kaye]

Has anyone watched these? I think they are pretty good. Gives you an idea of the challenges you can face and how a really good AC can make or break a production.

Yeah, I saw those and found them helpful. I wonder what other AC's would say about those video.

There's no doubt I think the single biggest challenge when using RED is pulling focus. But at the same time I think a lot of people will get pretty good at it. I think RED presents a fair number of other challenges... like everyone now has to be a colorist too.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Beat me with a hard stick if I'm wrong here, but...

As far as I have understood, the reason for NOT opening for a dual sdi 4:4:4 (or even 4:2:2) rgb tap is that the processing power for de-bayering is not there. Whisch is fair enough, even though I want it.

BUT for the focus check, we basically need a B&W image. I know NOTHING of de-bayering, but as far as I have understood, it deals with how to "pack out" the highest color fidelity/resolution of the image. If the pixel and luma information is there before de-bayering (and again, I allow myself to sound stupid here...), why not feed a 1:1/1080 whatever high resolution crop image one can through the SDI's for a quick check. I don't really need colors for that.

If one could use "red color peaking" or whatever superimposed on that image, fine. But if it is really possible to feed higher luma resolution than 720p, just in B&W - I'd take it...

But these are my very cheap 2 cents...

Gunleik

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

For checking lenses a 19" monitor hooked on the 720p HDSDI out is plenty enough, at least that's what I find.

This discussion is interesting because it shows how important collimated lenses with accurate witnessmarks are, at least in feature/commercial land. I never understood how people want to embrace a working workflow in this regard with non-cine lenses.

Hans

 

[Steve Gibby]

I'm sure the EVF is every bit as good as everyone says it is. But I'm also sure that you can't accurately pull focus for 4K resolution on a 1280x720 display.

I disagree. I've been sight focusing by myself in 4k accurately, at apertures from f4 to f16, using the 1024x600 RED LCD for over six months of heavy use of RED ONE. I've also been sight focusing by myself in 4k accurately, at apertures from f2.8 through f16, using the 1280x848 RED EVF, for about three months now of heavy use.

Those interested in my comments on sight focusing in 4k using the RED EVF can find them on this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9576

Excerpts from my comments on that thread:

"I've been using a RED EVF extensively since mid-December, so outside of RED Team, I'd probably be one of the best people here to answer your questions."

"The RED EVF is far and away the best EVF I've used in a 35 year career with top-end TV/video cameras. IMO those spreading FUD, who invariably haven't used the RED EVF, and are saying that users will supposedly not be able to sight focus for critical focus with RED using the RED focus tools (2x, magic focus), and RED EVF because its "only" 720p, are in for a pleasant surprise when they use a RED EVF. When I've needed shallow DOF, I've been easily sight focusing 4k images by myself (no focus puller or AC), at wide open apertures using the RED EVF, in tandem with 2x image magnification and focus assist."

"IMO the key component of the RED EVF that enables critical focus is the high-quality diopter. There is some serious glass in the diopter, which takes up 21/2" of the overall length of the EVF, and undoubtedly much of the weight. The diopter has a smooth twist adjustment, so that anyone's eyes can get a clear focus of the image.

When your eye is placed to the eyecup, and the diopter is adjusted for your eye, the 720p image is large and crystal clear. For me, critical focus for the shallowest of DOF needs has been readily achievable - no measuring tapes, no focus puller, just me racking my own focus quickly. If you want to use tapes and focus pullers, sure you can, but my point is that you don't have to if you don't want to, don't have them available, and/or the mobility of the shot won't allow it. The option to sight focus 4k (and naturally 2k) is a reality with RED ONE and the RED EVF."

"There will undoubtedly be others entering this thread with "you can't sight focus 4k with a 720p EVF" statements. I'd like to invite each of them to start their posts with a summary of the length and breadth of their hands on experience with RED ONE, and then to include the length and breadth of their hands on experience using a RED EVF with RED ONE."

You'll also notice another poster on that thread, Blair Paulsen (RED 19), concurs about the ability to sight focus RED ONE using the RED EVF, with his hands on experience of doing it at apertures as low as T1.3. He's used the RED ONE for over six months, and the RED ONE/RED EVF combo for about a month now.

I use the RED EVF in black and white, exactly as I've always used EVFs. To me, focus is easier to see in B & W. I would like to see a 1:1 image magnification capability on RED ONE - it would make my sight focusing with the RED ONE/RED EVF combo even easier.

So Barry, the length of my hands on shooting experience with RED ONE is over six months now, and the length of my hands on shooting experience using the combination of RED ONE with the RED EVF is now three months, and I'm saying sight focusing in 4k using the RED EVF is not only achievable, but I've been doing it accurately for all these months, as a long list of co-workers, clients, and my stock footage representative will attest. Since you're making statements like the one of yours I quoted above, about nobody supposedly being able to sight focus in 4k with a RED ONE/RED EVF combination, and so we know what degree of hands on RED ONE experience you're basing your conclusion on, what is the exact length of your hands on use with RED ONE, and your hands on use of a RED ONE/RED EVF combination?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Welcome to tonight's main event...Let's get ready to rumble....

Seriously guys, keep it focused on the issues. No personal attacks are needed. This is an important discussion for everyone and I believe in the end, will be a benefit if we keep it on track. Let's stick with facts, data, experience, etc. which is what you are both doing for the most part, but I see it could get personal and there is no need to. Both of your experiences will be helpful, as will the experience of people who have EVF and can comment on it's usefullness in judging focus.

Carry on...

 

[Steve Gibby]

In reference to your question, I've got a month of hands-on experience with the Red One, and zero experience with the EVF since it's not shipped yet even though I've ordered it. So I have every bit of experience that I could have.

Zero hands on experience with the EVF and yet you have its field usage and limitations already defined? I’d say at this point listening to the experience of those who have used it, should be of benefit to everyone – including you.

I do, however, have a month's experience in using a 1900x1200 monitor that's taking the exact same feed and displaying the exact same pixels as the EVF is, so unless you're going to try to imply that the EVF's pixels are somehow magically sharper and contain more information in their 1280x720 than the HDMI feed contains in its 1280x720, then I think I can firmly say that my experience is every bit as valid as yours.

No, its not. The diopter of the EVF, in tandem with using the EVF in B&W mode, 2x image magnification and edge detail, is a very different experience than you describe. I have the same 1900x1200 monitor which I initially view my images with after shooting sessions, so I know how each looks – something you’ve yet to experience.

Secondly, you go on and on and on (and on) about your "vast experience", but nowhere do you seem to acknowledge that your "experience" doesn't mean jack crap to the uses that roughly 99% of the users of the Red One are going to be putting it through.

My experience spans about every genre but narrative cinema. RED ONE has been, and is now being used in a wide variety of cine-style and EFP style production genres, way beyond just narrative cinema, many of which are my core production areas – nature, sports, documentaries, etc. Narrative cinema gets a lot of press, but the facts are that it is a small percentage of the overall motion media industry, and the potential and actual usage of RED ONE. Your insult of my experience not meaning jack crap and your quoted percentage of who is using RED ONE in what way, simply don’t reflect the reality of RED ONE usage. As you’ll remember, me and you had some exchanges on the utility of RED ONE clear back in 2006, with you claiming RED ONE would just be a digital cinema usage camera only. We played tennis on that for an entire thread, and then you disappeared from RED User until a few weeks ago. I’ve been around since the very beginning of RED ONE, and been here contributing to this community ever since. I have a very accurate handle on the intended and actual uses of RED ONE – one that isn’t restricted by the blinders of a “narrative cinema only” viewpoint. Narrative cinema is merely one of a myriad of intended and actual uses of RED ONE.

You're shooting at deeper f-stops than cinema shooters typically are, and you're shooting for (at most) a 1080 display.

Actually I shoot wide open quite often, for specific shot needs in some of the genres I shoot. Cinema shooters aren’t the only ones who seek shallow DOF – they just generally seek it more frequently. Yes, some of my content is aimed at a 1080 display, but a significant amount of it, my stock footage and a currently in production feature for example, is also used on the big screen.

But a 720P screen is not adequate for KNOWING that you've got perfect focus in 1080p, or 2K. You can probably "split the difference" and stop down and do very well, but you won't KNOW. And when you go to 3K the margin of error is even greater. And at 4K, that just goes out the window. And if you miss the focus by even the tiniest percent on a 4K shot, you knock your resolved detail down to where you are only getting maybe 2K's worth of detail in it. Hyper-critical focus is vital to get the full benefit of the 4K frame.

I understand the nuances of 4k, 3k, and 2k. I’ve been right here digesting RED ONE details from day one. Beyond that, I have six months of multi-genre hands on experience with RED ONE , and three months of multi-genre hands on experience with a RED ONE/RED EVF combination. We have a 4k projector at our state of the art editing facility, and I routinely and regularly check focus on my footage in 4k on our 24 foot wide screen – and its rarely off, and when it is it is by just a slight amount.

You have no narrative cinema experience. You've admitted that. You do not work in this genre. This discussion that's taking place here is solely concerned with narrative cinema. You are out of your depth, so please acknowledge that you don't have any skin in this particular game and stop trying to bully us into accepting a solution that you feel is adequate for your own usage.

See my comments above. Narrative cinema is but a small percentage of motion media production, and a commensurately small percentage of the overall use of RED ONE. This discussion is not merely concerned with narrative cinema, just as RED ONE is not merely intended for narrative cinema use. That established, the wide array of genres I work in are directly applicable to RED ONE usage. Since August 31, 2007, me and my crews have professionally used RED ONE for about every genres you can name except narrative cinema. We now have several national television programs in production, and a feature movie, none of which are narrative cinema. We’re allied with several other entities which have a broad array of professional productions in production using RED ONE, none of which are narrative cinema. Your narrative cinema exclusivist comments simply aren’t in touch with the RED’s intended usage for RED ONE, much less the actual usage in progress with the camera.

The 720p feed is useful as a video tap, and it's indeed the greatest video tap in the history of the world. But a cinematographer who would rely on the video tap (or upon screening video dailies) to verify focus would find himself run out of town on a rail. Dailies are printed and projected because what looks sharply/crisply in focus on video (or 720p) can very well be out of focus when projected.

As mentioned above, we have a 4k projector and large screen to check the focus of our focus on, thus I know how I did after every shoot. The results of focusing with the RED EVF in 4k have been accurate. If a cinematographer wants to or needs to use traditional focusing methods – AC, tape, etc. – fine, they should do what they want. But again, critical focus in 4k, even at wide open apertures, is possible using the RED EVF and a combination of the electronic aids that come with RED ONE. Would a 1:1 image magnification make it even easier? Yes.

If your professional standards allow for missing critical focus, or you're counting on the downrez from 4K to 720p to mask your focus errors, or you can't tell the difference between 720p-sharp and 4K-sharp, let's just say that you and I aren't having the same discussion.

Nothing in my original post to you was of a personally insulting nature, or meant to degrade your professional standards. I simply questioned your statement about the EVF and 4k focusing with RED ONE, and asked you to define for this forum what hands on experience with RED ONE you were drawing those conclusions from. This statement of yours above, and your “doesn’t mean jack crap” comment about my experience are personally and professionally insulting. I resent it, and if you continue to do so, I will seek all means at my disposal to defend my professional integrity. My professional standards are among the highest in the motion media industry, and have been maintained over a career that spans three decades. I’ll ask you right now to dispense with the personal attacks on my professional standards in a public forum.

 

[Bill Anderson]

I understand and appreciate both Barrie and Gibby's needs, both are vallid.
Gibby's standards are as high as anyone else's, because we've passed the age where sloppy focus has any safe haven. If you can focus for television, you can focus for cinema. Granted, the repercussions for sloppy focus in narrative cinema might mean one less testicle, but todays TV screens will just as readily show crap focus as any cinema screen. There is a diminishing return on image quality on a movie theatre screen (digital projection might be an exception) and it will no more readily show focus issues than will my forty odd inch TV. So cut the guy a wee bit slack on this issue; it's not like he's shooting for you tube.

 

[Barry Green]

Have a nice day, Steve.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Have a nice day, Steve.

You too Barry