Focusing on 720P. I need your help/Advice...

[Barry Green]

Seems like every great AC is agreeing with us though.

And a tape measure only works if your lens mount, and every individual lens, is properly collimated. Reasonable to expect from the rental houses, yes, but look at all the interest in a Nikon mount -- everyone who's interested in a Nikon mount is, frankly, going to NEED pixel-to-pixel. In fact, pixel-to-pixel is probably going to be the way that Nikon mount users actually collimate the mount!

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I agree 100%
There is no doubt we need better focusing tools/options. To be honest, I don't understand why some people are so "against" having those options. Why wouldn't you want more tools? Why would you want to limit yourself to just tape measuring? Yes I know...some will argue that's how you do it with 35mm cameras...but you tend to forget that the RED wasn't only made to replace 35mm...it's supposed to have a wide variety of audience and customers...from HD shooters to film shooters. I don;t believe that RED initial intention was to only tailor the RED for 35mm shooters....I don't think asking for better focusing tools is an unreasonable request.

 

[Andrew Madu]

There is no doubt we need better focusing tools/options.

The fact that this is even having to be discussed astonishes me. It's not as if the camera snuck up on the RED team at the last minute and announced 'and by the way, I'm going to be supporting 4k', or am I missing something blatantly obvious here?

The purpose of developing a camera which supports 4K but does not provide adequate means by which to focus at that level, is?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Yes, I use that exact combination. It is nowhere near sufficient.

The BT-LH80 is a fantastic monitor and, in combination with any HD camera, it's a perfect solution because its pixel-for-pixel and focus-in-red give you exactly what you need -- an electronic, pixel-based solution that precisely alerts you when perfect focus is achieved.

On the Red it's not adequate at all, because the Red only feeds it 1/9 of the total picture area. So the best you can get is pixel-perfect focus for 720P.

I'm asking the Red team to give us the same functionality that the BT-LH80 gives HD shooters: the same crisp response of the focus-in-red, working at a pixel-to-pixel level. The BT-LH80 solution really is perfect for HD. Red can do the same thing for 4K.

Red team, please do. It's vital and mandatory.

2x image magnification, in 4k mode, doesn't even provide as much pixel information as just shooting in 2K mode in the first place. It probably does a 2x on the full sensor instead of the 4k window off the sensor, where 2K mode does a 2K window out of the full sensor. So that means that there's room for more magnification if they'd just sample the 2K window instead of what they're doing now.

Image magnification when in 2K mode is nearly nonexistent.

Pixel to pixel is the only rational, valid, and useful way to go. Anything less is... less.

Doesn't seem like it'd be that hard either. They've obviously already got windowing technology! They have a 4.5K image as-is. Already, currently, they window out of the 4.5K image:
a 4K 16:9 window
a 4K 2:1 window
a 3K 16:9 window
a 3K 2:1 window
a 2K 16:9 window
a 2K 2:1 window

All we're asking for is a 1280x720 window. It really doesn't seem too much to ask. Replace the "2X magnification" function with a "sample 1280x720 window" instead and that'd almost be enough for those of us with BT-LH80's, because then we could use the monitor's focus-in-red feature until Red has time to properly implement their own.

Barry you rock.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

thank you for all the input. I guess the answer for now is to keep practicing or hire a "great AC"...I get it. I guess I don't understand in today's age why we still have to use "old" ways such as measuring by tape when for the most part we have technology that can allows to focus by eye (for the most part).

I've been doing 5 years intensive ENG, and I've been doing 15 years 35mm shooting. Good tools for evaluating focus by sight are vital, no doubt. And for sure false colours and such are great to have, no reason to limit your self. In doc-style applications very important.

In an cine-style environment such as feature films or commercials things are different. And not because DOP are snobs. Precise focus, pulled spot on is very important. Telling the actor a scene has to be redone because of bad focus is ok one or two times but not all the time.

Believe it or not measure tape is fast in the right hands. Often faster than checking focus visually. Also it gives the AC a feeling how distances and moves in a scene are set, for instinctive focus pulling very important. Focusing by eye works but does not give you a clear knowledge about the distances - unless you have a look on the barrel. ACs want to know how far a subject is, they want to know it precisely in order to pull the focus right in case the subject moves differently. And they move differently all the time.

Hans

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I agree Hans...but you don;t always have access to a great AC all the time...especially in the Indi world.....that's where it would be nice to be able to judge focus by eyesight....

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I agree Hans...but you don;t always have access to a great AC all the time...especially in the Indi world.....that's where it would be nice to be able to judge focus by eyesight....

I don't think that one needs an "great" AC to accomplish a lot of focus tasks that may show up on an indie feature. Often a young clapper loader who is eager to learn and practice is a much better alternative not only budget wise but also psychologically. "Great" ACs can be very "pro" meaning they don't accept a young and hopefully talented DOP as their boss. I am not saying this happens a lot, but happened to me not only once.

Hans

 

[Joel Kaye]

All we're asking for is a 1280x720 window. It really doesn't seem too much to ask.

Unless the camera never really accesses the 4k stream to do any of the processing (preview video, histogram, false color, peaking). Might not have the processing horsepower.

I think 1:1 on playback to check your takes would be good too. Perhaps the RED drive could be hooked to both the camera and a computer pulling shots into REDCINE on the set though...that would probably solve that. I haven't tried that.

I do think a lot people are going to learn to pull focus as AC's to support RED. They can use tape measures and mark spots etc. It's not that tough. But it's also not as accurate as 1:1 or a real focus assist. 1:1 never lies. Tape can lie.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Tape does not lie when optics are set up properly. Otherwise I am completely with you.

Hans

 

[Joel Kaye]

Tape does not lie when optics are set up properly.

Agreed. I was implying is that if things aren't all set up right then tape "lies". 1:1 would REVEAL something wasn't right.

But I still think there needs to be a focus assist solution that works during a take. 1:1 will never work during a take.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Agreed. I was implying is that if things aren't all set up right then tape "lies". 1:1 would REVEAL something wasn't right.

Yes, a camera needs a working VF. I would never argue this. And since RED's EVF is supposed to be the best EVF in the industry I'm fine in this regard.

Hans

 

[Dan McCain]

They can use tape measures and mark spots etc. It's not that tough. But it's also not as accurate as 1:1 or a real focus assist. 1:1 never lies. Tape can lie.

Have you ever pulled focus on a narrative show with 35mm lenses? If its" not that tough" any P.A. could learn to do it in a few days, right? WRONG! Many refer to the focus puller as the toughest job on the set. A great monitor and sophisticated tools will help, but to be accurate you cant strictly try to pull off the monitor, you have to know a lot of tricks and have a lot of skill from judging distance to thinking quick on your feet.

I was forced into operating and pulling focus at the same time on a red cam this weekend on a second unit shoot for a feature and its not a fun position to be in. Try operating and pulling on a 100-250mm lens with no rehersal while you have a crew of people standing around expecting you to get it right. I begged for someone else to operate so I could concentrate on the focus for this critical shot but no one was available that was comfortable operating. When the focus is soft the producers and editors will blame you no matter what the circumstances on the set were. Responsibility of a focus puller is huge and I know 2nd A.C.s who will not 1st even though they are well qualified for it because they don't want the liability of being blamed for soft focus.

For docs, ENG, run and gun short films stuff monitors will work when you can shoot stuff over and over till you get it right but for any professional narrative shoots focus puller is mandatory. I would like to see you in the situation mentioned above and see if you would stick to your statement that "its not that tough".

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

All joelnet (and I) are saying that focusl pulling can be learned, no whitchcraft required. A monitor actually does not help alot. It just shows you when you are out of focus. You don't want to see this.

Hans

 

[Steve Sherrick]

All joelnet (and I) are saying that focusl pulling can be learned, no whitchcraft required. A monitor actually does not help alot. It just shows you when you are out of focus. You don't want to see this.

Hans

Any position in this industry can be learned. But you'd have to agree that not everyone will excel at it. Some will be adequate, some will be brilliant, as in never miss their mark because of years of experience and training their eyes to multitask.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Any position in this industry can be learned. But you'd have to agree that not everyone will excel at it. Some will be adequate, some will be brilliant, as in never miss their mark because of years of experience and training their eyes to multitask.

Agreed, of course.

Hans

 

[Barry Green]

A monitor actually does not help alot. It just shows you when you are out of focus. You don't want to see this.

If I may be so bold as to rephrase this, let's say that "a monitor that doesn't show you what you're actually getting does not help a lot -- or at all." But a monitor that showed you a realtime "focus in red" working on the original 4K source data would be of incredible value.

Two types of focus assist are needed:
a) a pixel-to-pixel focus assist for grabbing focus marks and collimating lenses and such, but which would be of no practical value during a shot, and

b) a focus-in-red function (colored peaking) that snaps on over elements where critical focus has been achieved, and is invisible over all the rest of the image. That could be used during a shot.

With both of those functions, you'll be well prepared for any situation. Without either of those functions, you're flying by the seat of your pants.

 

[Finner]

If I may be so bold as to rephrase this, let's say that "a monitor that doesn't show you what you're actually getting does not help a lot -- or at all." But a monitor that showed you a realtime "focus in red" working on the original 4K source data would be of incredible value.

Two types of focus assist are needed:
a) a pixel-to-pixel focus assist for grabbing focus marks and collimating lenses and such, but which would be of no practical value during a shot, and

b) a focus-in-red function (colored peaking) that snaps on over elements where critical focus has been achieved, and is invisible over all the rest of the image. That could be used during a shot.

With both of those functions, you'll be well prepared for any situation. Without either of those functions, you're flying by the seat of your pants.

Barry you forgot about:

c) a $5 tape measure. The most effective focus tool on the market.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Oh yes, a focus system that tells you what is in focus and what not is needed and most cameras have it in better or less quality. While focus pulling the most clever monitor just shows you wether you nailed the focus or not. Hence why for the actual focus pulling a monitor does not help really, only experience helps here.

Hans

 

[Barry Green]

Barry you forgot about:

c) a $5 tape measure. The most effective focus tool on the market.

Again, only if your lenses are in precise collimation and your focus marks and witness marks on your lenses are accurate. Something that can not be taken for granted on behalf of Red users, many of whom are likely going to be using either the Red lenses (sans witness marks) or Nikon lenses. And, as Jarred has already posted, swapping from PL to Nikon mount is going to involve having to set backfocus manually, in the field.

Tape measure won't do much good if the collimation isn't perfect and the lens markings aren't perfect. And once users start using Nikon lenses or swapping the mount themselves, both of those items go out the window!

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

well said Barry!