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Could this be True?

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purefilm

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I was talking to my buddy about the Red tonight and he told me that he thought the HPX3000 had more dynamic range than the Red. he had used the Red a couple day ago and said that he was getting less dynamic range than he expected.

I wonder if he was doing something wrong? Is there a common mistake that people make that could result in loss of Dynamic Range?

Then he told me that he was shooting in a grocery store at full light and was able to expose inside and outside through a window with the HPX3000?

could there be any truth to the claim that the HPX3000 has more dynamic range? I would like to think not, but I have know idea if this could be true.

We are shooting with the Red on sunday. I would like to know if there are any tips I could bring to the table that could enhance the image?
 
if his account is true, it can be attributed to other factors then a supposedly great dynamic range of the camera... was the window tinted or colored glass, what time of day was it, weather conditions (cloud cover?), etc. I can get a properly exposed interior/exterior shot with my DSLR depending on some of the aforementioned factors. A light meter reading of both the inside and outside would be more accurate... and a range test even more accurate.

Anecdotes should be taken with a grain of salt... or bag of salt... depending on who does the story telling. :)


purefilm said:
I was talking to my buddy about the Red tonight and he told me that he thought the HPX3000 had more dynamic range than the Red. he had used the Red a couple day ago and said that he was getting less dynamic range than he expected.

I wonder if he was doing something wrong? Is there a common mistake that people make that could result in loss of Dynamic Range?

Then he told me that he was shooting in a grocery store at full light and was able to expose inside and outside through a window with the HPX3000?

could there be any truth to the claim that the HPX3000 has more dynamic range? I would like to think not, but I have know idea if this could be true.

We are shooting with the Red on sunday. I would like to know if there are any tips I could bring to the table that could enhance the image?
Click to expand...
 
Hard to tell from just one user's experience. Was he looking at the camera's LCD or at processed footage? Dynamic range if fine with RED, certainly good enough for high quality footage.

One tip: don't over-expose with RED. Check your histogram or waveform for blown-out highlights and remember there is more detail in the shadows than the LCD will show. Better to go for a slightly dark image on the LCD and correct that in post.
 
There are many ways to create bad footage with the Red One. If you haven't planned well, or researched the camera, and don't light for the camera, you may get a relatively low dynamic range. But if you understand the camera, and light with its particular way-of-seeing-the-world in mind, you can get massive dynamic range. And at 4K, rather than 1080P.

When we first turned the camera on, a week or so ago, we just pressed record and ran around shooting anything we could. Half of it looked great. Half looked dreadful. After a week of testing, everything we shoot looks gorgeous. Truly, truly gorgeous, with masses of dynamic range. You have to test, experiment, learn and apply, and also master the workflow. So many RAW shots look vile to the untrained eye, but with the right colourist the end result can be mind-blowing. We shot stuff long after sun down, and in minutes colored it to look like it was shot at magic hour.
 
No question the HPX3000 is a truly amazing camera, especially with DRS (Dynamic range stretch) and of course it records 10bit AVCIntra to P2 cards...which can be run 1080P via HDSDI to a 1920 monitor. All instant with no post processing required to see full resolution / latitude etc.
Of course RED shoots RAW so the real image quality is seen off the R3D files in post. One can't judge the true resolution / latitude / colorimetry by the RED camera's 720P output
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the issue of dynamic range is more complicated than just an F-Stop range. How does the camera perform at both extremes? Most video cameras clip abruptly at the high end, giving weird posterized colors in sunset shots, for example. Red gives creamy roll-offs which makes all the difference and gives a more organic film look.

Phil
www.artbeats.com
 
if you are consequently using the histogram and try to avoid single channel clipping you'll get great images. i'm constabtly underexposing and i'm still getting
plenty of infomation out of the shadows.

martin
 
Smartin said:
if you are consequently using the histogram and try to avoid single channel clipping you'll get great images. i'm constabtly underexposing and i'm still getting
plenty of infomation out of the shadows.

martin
Click to expand...

I suppose this is through trial and error. I was under the impression that the histograms are based on the 720p output and not the redcode images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case how can you really use the histograms without doing some mental extrapolation of what the 4k would/should look like. From the footage I've gleamed, I'd say the RED is as good in underexposure as it is bad in overexposure. My biggest gripe thus far has been loss of detail in highlights. Detail in the shadows seems fairly good as long as blue noise isn't over the top. Just my 2c. Lately, the thing that's got me worried a bit though is the jello image. We're in preproduction on a dance film and I'd be interested in understanding how the RED will handle handheld of high energy dancing....

btw: anyone know if RED team suggested 1080p preview sometime in the future? or Histograms based on the raw image?
 
Comparing DR without a properly calibrated test chart is fraught with issues. Also most video cameras "play" with the image to boost the blacks to help you see in the shadows. We ask you that you do this yourself, rather than default to it. That can give the impression that you're seeing more into the shadows than you really are.

Graeme
 
I don't know the Panasonic HD cameras but the Sony F900R is very familiar to me and I must say there are only two things the F900R does better: Ergonomis and turnaround times.

IMO 4K oversampling on a 2K/1080p picture and custom tweaking the parameters in the RAW development is the big trick of the RED. In this regard DR is plenty enough, epecially in the highlights. Please note that noise can always be traded for DR.

Hans
 
It could be your friend was not exposing for the highlights properly and then not processing the raw footage properly. Was the person who was posting the footage experienced with processing raw digital image data? In my limited experience with raw red footage, it is amazing how much you can manipulate the image data to bring out detail, shadows, highlights etc. You need to think in terms of negative data with raw files compared to shooting reversal film with a standard HD video camera..

Please correct me if I am off base here.

Thanks for listening!
 
Since we are shooting with the Red on Sunday, I will take these comments in consideration and watch to see what my friend is doing to get his results. It may be that he is just not totally understanding the RAW concepts.

I trust his input, he has been working with film as an 1st AC and DP for over 10 years. I just think this is another example of the fact that Red is somethings New, and even the seasoned pro have to accept that there is a learning curve to the camera.

Please anymore tip would be greatly appreciated.
 
Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.
 
chuckt said:
Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.
Click to expand...

So because the RED is $17500 are you saying it is not a professional camera? The truth is that this camera certainly is a professional camera. My opinion is that this camera will have a large learning curve for amatures use to pro-sumer cameras and have had no experience with film. Red has a similar work-flow as film. I believe this camera is a competitor with the, F23, Dalsa, Genesis, ect,,
 
chuckt said:
Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.
Click to expand...

The RED One is not really a $17,500 camera. I don't know what comes with the Panasonic but with RED you need to buy a storage option, a LCD and/or viewfinder, all kind of attachments and then you end up somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 for a basic package.

edit: just had a look on the Panasonic website and apparently it only comes with a on-board LCD.
 
Pretty much same with the HPX -- you have to buy P2 cards--and it has a lot of slots--i don't recall how many, but enough....lens, monitor---i believe, but could be wrong that it comes standard---for $48k with a viewfinder...and it produces a beautiful image and the files can easily be converted to .mov for FCP.....same as an HVX

....so i guess that makes the camera a $48k ++++ camera
 
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