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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

One thing bears mentioning and this thread is a good example of it... we're starting to see more and more "no, it can't do xxx, it does yyy".

This is a GOOD thing in disguise... it means certain items have passed from "anything is possible" to the hard realities of whatever silicon has been chosen. It means the camera is coming together. The more we see this "specificity of limitations" mentioned by the team, the more real RED is.

Food for thought.
 
It's very real all right :-) But in a camera of finite dimensions, you have to be very careful on how you spend your space / power / $$ budget to get the most optimimum camera. You're witnessing that process here! Quite frankly I'm amazed that we've got 4k RAW in there to REDCODE, and after that everything else we put in just adds to the amazement.

Graeme
 
Good point Graeme...of all the jaw-dropping features of RED One, and there are many, IMO the most stunning feature/development is REDCODE RAW, and then more specifically 4k REDCODE RAW in-camera at 27MB/s....
 
Graeme Nattress said:
What are people doing now when they shoot HDCAM or Varicam for a commercial?

Graeme
Click to expand...

With the Varicam we view the "live" footage on a Sony CRT PVM14L5 multiformat monitor (720p60) and record it on a VHS for review (downconverted using an AJA HD10M3). We use gaffer tape to mask the monitor which is really a pain in the ass. Having the VF "frame guides" would be fantastic.

Regards
 
Wow... now that was a marathon read...

Long term it does seem like intelligent displays is the way to go. Clean signal + Digital meta data. It would of course have to be standardized so that all monitors could take it. Ideally here is how I would setup the standard.

Use existing HD-SDI outputs but along the bottom 1 pixels encode your metadata. That would on a 720p signal give you more than 5KB of data assuming you encoded using 5 IRE brackets. You could then define a custom frame guide using [x,y] start [x,y] end values.
 
There is no need to use the image for metadata, HD sdi supports extensive metadata packets.
 
I really don´t care that much for having such a great/final image on set. I´m used to film where videoassist is a humble tool just to check focus, composition and performance. Having a HDMI output for videoassist on a consumer LCD is luxury for me. What I´m really concern of is how are we going to playback that HDMI feed of the camera in a cheap/portable and reliable way without using the camera. Graeme ??
 
Aren't there some consumer HDMI DVRs aimed at being able to record high def tv shows?
 
so it's now over a year since this thread started. still, we are limited to 720P output on the camera.

is there any word on when we'll get 1080p output? or better yet, any word on RED's '4K delivery system' that is upcoming?

i was a part of a 2-day demo this week for local DPs. the number one question by far was 'how can we accurately monitor our true image on set?' 720p is not the answer for them.
 
skipdivils said:
i was a part of a 2-day demo this week for local DPs. the number one question by far was 'how can we accurately monitor our true image on set?' 720p is not the answer for them.
Click to expand...


Sorry, skip.. am I the only one who doesn't get this question? With RAW data, there is no need to get an accurate image since everything is/should be done in post. As long as the framing is right.

Do directors and DP's say the same thing for shooting on film? Maybe its about time the DPs in your area dust off their light meters and get back to some "traditional lighting by eye!"
(thats how Peter Suschitzky would put it anyway!)
 
skipdivils said:
so it's now over a year since this thread started. still, we are limited to 720P output on the camera.

is there any word on when we'll get 1080p output? or better yet, any word on RED's '4K delivery system' that is upcoming?

i was a part of a 2-day demo this week for local DPs. the number one question by far was 'how can we accurately monitor our true image on set?' 720p is not the answer for them.
Click to expand...

Skip,

Love ya man but any DP that said this is not a DP. Like mentioned the image being RAW means there is no way to accurately monitor on set. A 720P output kicks ass on any film camera video tap available in world. Suggest to the DP's that told you this that they may want to go back to film school and take the light meter course again.
 
hate to break the news to you guys. but these are real DPs. the 4 grand a day commercial kind. they want to look at a waveform or histogram to check their image.

rather than telling them to go back to film school, i opted to ask the question. seemed reasonable enough...

putting a waveform or vectroscope on a 720P image is pretty much useless.

but yes finner, i do agree that if considered as simply a video tap, 720p is totally fine. better than any film camera indeed. but we aren't talking about film now. we are talking about digital cinema. and the other digital cinema cameras all have better than 720p coming out.

also, technicolor was displaying a sweet-ass on-set cart for colorizing and creating looks. this simply will not work with a 720p output. now, if we could get a nice 4:4:4 10-bit feed from the camera, we'd be talking....

personally, i agree with you guys. shoot RAW. worry about MOST of the other stuff later. but since i am the lowly data technician/video assist guy who works with these DPs, i wanted to get as much info. to them as possible.

also, since this technology is so new, they are looking for a 'comfort blanket' of sorts. if we could provide that for them, i would. simply put, it would get me more work...

also, a nice 4:4:4 10 bit log output from the camera that is clean for recording would help a lot too. hell, a 4:2:2 1080p output would be a good solution for some, but that is an entirely other topic :)
 
Johnny Johnson said:
Sorry, skip.. am I the only one who doesn't get this question? With RAW data, there is no need to get an accurate image since everything is/should be done in post. As long as the framing is right.

Do directors and DP's say the same thing for shooting on film? Maybe its about time the DPs in your area dust off their light meters and get back to some "traditional lighting by eye!"
(thats how Peter Suschitzky would put it anyway!)
Click to expand...

honestly. i suggest you check out this thread. it is more along the subject i was getting at....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9214

but i guess everyone on that thread is a hack too right.....maybe we should just all light by eye.
 
Well I don´t know how come we are in such a trouble having a 720p goin out.
Skip you say that DOP´s that earn 4k per day need a 1080? who they work with? I might give a call.
Now lets get serious, the spotmeter it will be necesary no matter what the outgoing signal unless we have a raw outgoing and the DOP learns to read it with acouracy, but the 709 will never be able to give a perfect reading no matter if it is a 720p or a 1080 or a 10000. I am guessing that every dop will prefer the benefits of the log system (redlog, log 685 or log 985) for pospro so monitoring the 709 with a AStro(waveform) or whatever just doesn´t look quite de ideal if you are going all the path with 709 in pospro (you might take ths decition for cheap TV workflow) then the false color looks to me as good as any other tradicional monitoring system.
Knowledge of area system + spotmeter = total control of RAW cameras
And the RED is not an sception.
Jon Corcuera
 
Corcuera said:
but the 709 will never be able to give a perfect reading no matter if it is a 720p or a 1080 or a 10000. I am guessing that every dop will prefer the benefits of the log system (redlog, log 685 or log 985) for pospro so monitoring the 709 with a AStro(waveform) or whatever just doesn´t look quite de ideal if you are going all the path with 709 in pospro (you might take ths decition for cheap TV workflow)
Jon Corcuera
Click to expand...

It is helpful to have more resolution (1080 v.s 720) to see more detail, however, that has no inherent linkage to Rec 709. If Rec 709 is not looking ok to you, it may have to do with how the white point of the Rec 709 was selected by a camera manufacturer.

In Red camera's case, Graeme Nattress has already pointed out that setting EV to -0.4 resolves the full range issue for Rec 709. I posted some comments about this on the following link and you are welcome to have a look:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=165251#post165251
 
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