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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED One marketing campaign

I have to weigh in here. Jim covered our logic on the camera side above... I see it working every single day in Hollywood on multiple projects. Regarding post workflow questions, concerns and potential confusion. Give me some sense of what that is... The Apple workflow is clearly defined, and works - projects are using it every day. The Scratch workflow for taking an EDL from FCP works to do a 2k or 4k conform. There is an Avid workflow laying off to tape and chasing an ALE that works, and has been used successfully on a big budget feature all shot with RED, and will continue to improve and evolve over time.

The logic for the FCP, DI and other NLE workflows are layed out here in as simple logic form as we could possibly make it.

http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow

post workflow can be a complicated game - there are many variations and styles of working, and the minute you start talking about it, the layers start cropping up and days later you are still talking about the variants. For us the logic was to create a very simple pathway for people shooting RED 4k and finishing in HD which is what the bulk of shooting and posting will be (just like with shooting 35mm film shooting)... we've done that, and you can stay all with in the very affordable Mac Desktop and FCP world for that. If you are going to go beyond an HD finish for feature film work or other theatrical delivery, we have solid logic and tools for that - all that can clearly lead you to the DPX file format finishing world that is very well known and supported by many DI systems out there. If you are having problems or issues working on a RED project in post (and not just speculating or going on hearsay when you've never actually worked on a RED project through post), we want to know about them, so we can advise on proper steps to solve those issues that likely we've seen and know the solution for, and learn ourselves more about how to improve the overall experience.

Just as the RED camera is continuing to evolve with firmware updates, The RED post workflows continue to evolve as well, they are not perfect, and there are some soft spots that we continue to work on and improve. We are not done with this, not by a long shot - but as long as you follow the logic and the steps we recommend, (and take care to check the support area of our website for any known issues) you can for sure have a successful post production experience in addition to a sucessful shooting experience with RED.

For those that know me, I'm out in the world all the time, showing and explaining what RED is up to... We always want to do more, and will do more as we grow as a company, but all things considered I think we do a pretty good job of getting the word out about RED and how to work with RED in a post environment.
 
dalemccready said:
I find that small bad rumours circulate much faster and easier than good news. . . . It's a sad fact that I more often get people wanting to rip into Red than support the idea. Maybe it's human nature. . . .
Click to expand...

I don't think it's so much HUMAN nature mate.

It's more like KIWI nature to take a negative path towards things.

Check out this link for reference to the following, just so you know I'm not making it up :biggrin:

"Kiwis are a negative lot. We are conditioned as such by our poor and insular media, by the Maori grievance industry and by the peculiarly Kiwi tradition of not making a fuss. The combination has been acidic of our spirit. We find reasons not to attempt for fear of failure. New Zealanders are pathologically afraid of making dicks of ourselves. Inertia is our inner guidance system. . . .it is our defence mechanism against all that is new and shiny. . . "
 
Ted, If you may, have a look @ this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9449

thing is that FCP/RC does not speak with eachother.
As so much of the fun in the RAW files, only is visible if you treat them nicely in RedCine prior to CC, this is a major issue, and I've seen really bad results from really experienced people, due to the very fact they don't see the RAW vs video issues.

And, while I'm @ it, to avoid a lot of general problems in post, RC should NOT default to the shot ISO, but to (maybe something in the) ISO 160 range.

That way you would avoid a lot of the DynamicRange problems people are having.

My 2c

Gunleik
 
I agree with you, FCP to REDCINE via XML to create a pull list for a DI finish is one of the "soft spots" I was referring to. The ability for an enduser (iBloom) to create RedTrip is a great step in the right direction. We know we need a more robust solution, and it is one of the things that is being worked on.
 
Do any of you really think Jim will rest until RED is the camera system on the market? Why would he stop until it is? People need to stop being afraid or making up reasons not to like the system. Fact is, you can't tell if its film or not and its FAR easier to work with than film. Can't be afraid to learn new tricks. People should realize that after scarlet gets released RED will take over the market. Scarlet if it does 2K, it will become the flm-student camera...RED will become what the students use when they "grow up". They are investing into the future. Thats why they will win. If your part of the past I would embrace the future with open arms, otherwise you might stay in the past. No offance to anyone but really, why would Jim/RED rest until they are the system. Look at how far they have come, it should certainly show where they are going. Perfection is somthing to be desired but the fact that RED won't stop working on getting better is as close to perfection as you can get. What other camera system really contiunes to improve its system once its released...none.
 
TedRed said:
I have to weigh in here. Jim covered our logic on the camera side above... I see it working every single day in Hollywood on multiple projects. Regarding post workflow questions, concerns and potential confusion. Give me some sense of what that is... The Apple workflow is clearly defined, and works - projects are using it every day. The Scratch workflow for taking an EDL from FCP works to do a 2k or 4k conform. There is an Avid workflow laying off to tape and chasing an ALE that works, and has been used successfully on a big budget feature all shot with RED, and will continue to improve and evolve over time.

The logic for the FCP, DI and other NLE workflows are layed out here in as simple logic form as we could possibly make it.

http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow

post workflow can be a complicated game - there are many variations and styles of working, and the minute you start talking about it, the layers start cropping up and days later you are still talking about the variants. For us the logic was to create a very simple pathway for people shooting RED 4k and finishing in HD which is what the bulk of shooting and posting will be (just like with shooting 35mm film shooting)... we've done that, and you can stay all with in the very affordable Mac Desktop and FCP world for that. If you are going to go beyond an HD finish for feature film work or other theatrical delivery, we have solid logic and tools for that - all that can clearly lead you to the DPX file format finishing world that is very well known and supported by many DI systems out there. If you are having problems or issues working on a RED project in post (and not just speculating or going on hearsay when you've never actually worked on a RED project through post), we want to know about them, so we can advise on proper steps to solve those issues that likely we've seen and know the solution for, and learn ourselves more about how to improve the overall experience.

Just as the RED camera is continuing to evolve with firmware updates, The RED post workflows continue to evolve as well, they are not perfect, and there are some soft spots that we continue to work on and improve. We are not done with this, not by a long shot - but as long as you follow the logic and the steps we recommend, (and take care to check the support area of our website for any known issues) you can for sure have a successful post production experience in addition to a sucessful shooting experience with RED.

For those that know me, I'm out in the world all the time, showing and explaining what RED is up to... We always want to do more, and will do more as we grow as a company, but all things considered I think we do a pretty good job of getting the word out about RED and how to work with RED in a post environment.
Click to expand...
Ted, I think you just earned your Red Team tag here on Reduser. Let's get rid of the Junior Member status. I think you know someone that can do that for you.

Up until receiving my camera, everything has been speculation or user experience passed on by people I trust. But I've always known that it was going to be up to me to market this technology, implement a strong workflow, and be active in the filmmaking community, talking to people, helping them understand what Red is and what it isn't. Red is not sitting on their laurals. That is good. That means things will continue to improve, and we can inform our clients when things do improve, so if clients are on the fence now, maybe we convince them down the road a bit.

I'll admit, there is some bad blood out there (people who want to see Red fail) for whatever reason. But I think we are beyond the vaporware stage. What I am most excited about is seeing people like Ian come up with RedTrip and Mark's team at Offhollywood creating tools that will benefit this community and those clinets we are trying to sell to. There are a lot of positive things happening everyday. What are speedbumps now, may be distant memories a few months from now.

If you believe in this camera and the community that contributes to it's progress, then you should be able to market it, and have a solid business plan built around it. This is not a get rich endeavor. It's a long-term committment that will pay dividends over time, both in rental income and creative reward.

Keep up the good work guys!
 
The RED One marketing campaign. You're reading the RED One marketing campaign. It has always been about the forums, from DVinfo to REDUSER, the development, the process, the marketing, the hype has always been in yours and Jim's hands. It is a bizarre model, unlike anything that has ever been done before, certainly in this industry. No one, and I mean no one in Japan would consider it, or even get it for that matter.

It has certainly done well for us at RED, establishing a community, creating a sense of ownership for a new technology and belonging to a revolution. The product is a result of it. The camera you all wanted, that Jim wanted. It can't be everything to everybody, but the camera is more of an answer to shooter's needs than anything before it. It is a revolution, in its abilities and in its marketing. And that marketing dynamic will continue to make us different from anyone before us or after us because, frankly, I don't think anyone will ever have the balls to do it this way.

We are transparent. Can you imagine any other camera company exposing every customer complaint in a public forum? Can you imagine what a public relations nightmare it would be for any company to have such a transparent visage, displaying every beef and gripe that comes along? And we continue to feed the beast; as the noisy ones in the community rant about what they don't like, our responses are immediate, encouraging more and more to use the board to express their gripes. It's a double edged sword for us these days, as anyone, with or without experience, can voice opinions on what they've heard or what they've been led to believe. In many ways, these opinions, and even experiences, can be extremely harmful, as the negative noise can dissuade other customers from jumping on board, afraid of unseen gremlins. This tears down the community and ultimately hurts us all.

As with all other things in life, it's not black and white. Many complaints are legitimate, from technical problems to customer service issues. We're a young company, suffering the growing pains of going from R&D company to product manufacturer and retailer, ramping 0 to 500 cameras per month, right out of the starting gate. And, yeah, it's one big challenge making it all happen. So, mistakes happen. Balls get dropped. People screw up. But the fact of the matter is that all people screw up. People complain about something before they truly understand its operation. It's called cockpit error. The nut behind the wheel. People complain on the boards about customer contact after not updating us on year old email addresses. We're all human, but jeez, we take a lot of heat on stuff that we're just not guilty of.

The reader on the forum has to make his way through the opinion, the mis-information, the fan boy hype and the true facts, both positive and negative. I'm one of the two (not counting Jim) marketing guys here. Now, being the RED marketing guy is like being a Maytag repairman. There is a lot of buzz, a lot of sizzle out there at "no charge". Fulfillment of the product ordered is the emphasis these days and hyping the product is way down the list. But as I see the concerns and FUD filling the boards, it strikes me that something proactive has to take place. There is no question that this young product has issues, from wobbly mounts to too much ambient noise to workflow concerns. Well, welcome to the world of high technology. Know this: There is no camera company on the planet that has the will, the resources, the leader and the determination to be the best more than RED. Take that to the bank. My title here is Straight Shooter, somewhat antithetical to a marketing position, but that is why I am here. Spreading the word with a lack of BS. I have a quote that Gavin (im.thatoneguy) posted many months ago that sits directly in front of me at my desk. It reads, "Marketing is marketing is advertising is lies. Everybody knows that." It reminds me everyday that to be at a level commensurate with the product, I cannot and will not fall victim to that mantra. (Thanks Gavin) I won't BS you, the camera isn't perfect. The company isn't perfect. But it is the closest damn thing to a company that listens and responds and can build the world's greatest cameras that will ever be. There are dozens of people here, working tireless hours way into the night, every day, that don't come to work to disappoint you, or screw up your world, or make your life difficult. Every single person here is here to make this company the company Jim envisions it to be.

There are many, many people out in the world today doing tremendous work with these cameras. Every day new productions are starting and finishing. We don't hear enough of the successes. We don't hear enough from the people that are shooting daily and are in love with this camera. Workflow is not an issue for them. They have developed working solutions that for 2K out don't require anything more than a MacPro and FCP. It is a 4K camera that fully configured is $25K. Seriously. Are we really arguing about the details? Can we all stand back and look at what this camera is capable of? Jim has a dream. He will not stop until it is realized. This camera, and many cameras to come, will continue to improve, along with the company. And this company will never stop listening, will never stop being transparent and will never give up, until it is the very best. I've known Jim for over 20 years and I can tell you, that is the truth. Or I wouldn't be here.
 
I wanted to take a bit of time and put in my two cents. I think the company is suffering severe growing pains. I am a huge believer in RED ane promote it every chance I get. But before we get to marketing we need to smooth out some bumps in the road.

I say this because marketing is much more than making a good product. It is really educating your potential customers about what you do and why you are better. If you do it right, the "marketing/sales" part of the equation is really easy - the customer, or in our case producer/director, simply makes an informed decision. I work with one Fortune 50 company in particular that has always tended to hire educators to sell their products. It is one of the few companies that is still showing plus signs in front of it's stock.

Red is growing by leaps and bounds but Jim is no stranger to what it takes to build a successful company - especially when it comes to communicating with customers. Right now my frustration lies in clear communication with the company. I have repeatedly asked for a review of my order by a senior RED Team member with particular attentiontion to critical spares - finally I resorted to positing my order on this forum and did get some limited response (thanks to all who replied).

There doesn't seem to be an organized way to get information from the RED team short of the forums. Our customer rep, althoug trying hard, is very green with RED. What would be great is an order review hit squad that looks at orders, recommends changes to the package, and keeps a sharp eye out for critical spares. I know that I'd really appreciate that kind of service. Right now I sort of feel that ordering is a bit of a free-for-all.

Although I understand the new paradigm that Jim is trying to create, I think that a slightly more traditional approach to putting your package together might be warranted. For example, when I purchased my last Arri package, I had several discussions with knowledgeable sales staff and technicians and they gave me their recommendations freely. They caught a few things I misssed and helped me put together a complete kit that I was extremely satisfied with.

When we were planning our first HD editing suite we received numerous phone calls from product technicians suggesting additional boards for our decks, routing capabilities, and enhancements to our workflow. We built the suite and were Beta testing several products in the suite. It was not without some pitfalls but all-in-all it was a good experience.

The experience with RED to date has not been at the same level. Although I remain confident of the image quality, and admire what Jim and team have accomplished in very short order, there is lots of room for improvement. The refrain of "we're a new company" is starting to wear thin.

I'm sure like many of you, we don't have time to pour through these forums looking for answers. We're running a small production company and have to make sure that eighteen people are all doing their jobs, work with new clients, shoot projects, help concept new shows, and then in our spare time keep abreast of technology.

It is never useful to carp, even a bit, without offering a solution. One possibility might be a section of the site with some user profiles that detail packages and workflow. That way we would have a concise picture of production companies using RED, their equipment package, and how they are handling post. I know that I would learn a lot from this kind of profile.

I'm not trying to raise anyone's ire - just offer some thoughts that might improve the process for all of us.

Thanks.
 
I think I may have been slightly misunderstood.

I am in no way wary of the RED/4K system. But it is clear to me that others are. Even though these forums have worked tremendously so far, they are limited in scope. There are simply very worthy customers out there who will never even hear about these forums. I think all of the efforts of the RED Team up to this point are 110% and we can only expect to see more.

When I discussed the workflow topic, I din't mean there WAS an issue with the workflow. There is an issue with the PERCEPTION of the workflow.

Every problem or bug has and is been/being fixed. But the bugs themselves are not the issue. The KNOWLEDGE is.

The forums are good for knowledge.. but it can sometimes be a daunting task trying to sort through all the information.

This was meant to be a POSITIVE discussion... in no way was I trying to infer anything remotely negative. Just wanted to give my opinion on what i believe could HELP the RED/4K system achieve what it ultimately and inevitably will achieve: Market dominance.
 
well, whatever they are doing, they are doing it right. you simply don't sell 4,000 cameras in this price range, and have people start shooting major features on your no-name, first-time ever camera, with your fucking Beta testers.

Oops. wait a minute. yes you do. you do now. since RED came along.

say whatever you like about their marketing being ONLY this forum. i will tell you this. it works. that much is obvious. and it WILL go down in history. as much the marketing method as the camera itself.

and i will also remind you all that this here forum has made a lot of other businesses more successful. ET and other accessory makers, group buys, program writers, etc. This place is fucking amazing. And so is the camera for it's price. Keep on rockin' that boat RED....
 
Nathan Buxton said:
I think I may have been slightly misunderstood.

I am in no way wary of the RED/4K system. But it is clear to me that others are. Even though these forums have worked tremendously so far, they are limited in scope. There are simply very worthy customers out there who will never even hear about these forums. I think all of the efforts of the RED Team up to this point are 110% and we can only expect to see more.

When I discussed the workflow topic, I din't mean there WAS an issue with the workflow. There is an issue with the PERCEPTION of the workflow.

Every problem or bug has and is been/being fixed. But the bugs themselves are not the issue. The KNOWLEDGE is.

The forums are good for knowledge.. but it can sometimes be a daunting task trying to sort through all the information.

This was meant to be a POSITIVE discussion... in no way was I trying to infer anything remotely negative. Just wanted to give my opinion on what i believe could HELP the RED/4K system achieve what it ultimately and inevitably will achieve: Market dominance.
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I hear you Nathan, loud and clear. I think that most of the posts, if not all, on this thread are meant as positive and/or constructive criticism. We had kind of a rough day on the boards today and I'm probably a little oversensitive to it and went on a rant. I do agree with you in that it is close, if not the time, to move beyond the forum and let the world in on this amazing phenomenon known as RED. Thanks for the support, the confidence and the input.
 
Although there are LOTS of people accepting it, even a few people trying to shoot it down because they don't understand it can be damaging.

In the casino business they equate 1 satisfied customer will bring in 1 more customer, who if that new customer is happy will in turn bring another. So on and so forth. Although they have discovered that for every 1 dissatisfied customers, they BRING 5 existing customers with them away from the business.

We may be able to relate this to this situation but switch "satisfied customer" to "educated, potential customer" and "dissatisfied customer" with "uneducated potential customer"
 
Jannard said:
The skeptics are NOT those that have received cameras. Read the posts. And if a customer HAS received a camera and is not happy... just give me a call.
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I couldn't agree more. I am so happy with the camera. Yes, I post about things that worry me, such as workflow and fan-noise, but for every worry posted there are a thousand enormous grins, and plenty of stunned silences. I am constantly amazed by the camera, but am wary of being called a fan-boy.

But it is also true there is a lot of fear and resistance out there. Personally, I like this. It makes RedUsers look like daring pioneers. But for rental companies, and for the Red company itself, I hope some of the fear abates. It will only take one or two successful features, I imagine.
 
The reason that Red is getting a bad reputation is that it was hyped up so much that it had nowhere to go but down. Skeptics aren't ignorant people who don't think for themselves but there are definitely some ignorant people on this site. I have tried to sell the camera system to many clients who were informed and had reasonable issues with the camera at present. At one point the Red was better than everything 35mm, the Genesis, the F23, Dalsa, D-20. After the Red finally came out it has been shown to display a fair amount of noise in the low end which could also be the reason it has to be rated so slow under tungsten lights.. I own this camera and it is true. the F-23 has more dynamic range and most other cameras have less noise in the low-end. Sure the Red can only get better as far as image quality, noise, latitude, faster boot up times, faster transcode times. The thing is, the Red has not met up to the hype that was created on this forum and that's the main cause of its bad rep. Hopefully build 15 will be able to squash some of the most difficult issues. But if it doesn't there is always build 16. That's usually the excuse I hear. But that's what I signed up for, for better or worse.
 
The open architecture of Red is both its power and its weakness. Red went after open access workflow, such as raw format processing which is well suited for still image cameras, however, such techniques have certain disadvantages in the video world, in addition to the advantages they provide. Interestingly, in pattern recognition there is a famous "No Free Lunch Theorem" (Google it).

I have seen it happen many times that algorithms that are well-suited for still images do not scale/adapt to the video world that well. On the other hand, the power of moving images hides many a defects of still images if properly exploited.

Noise characteristics, which has a direct bearing on dynamic range, is one example, which a lot of people are complaining, and is one considerable disadvantage of doing in Raw processing as opposed to doing it in-camera before signal out.
 
Big Jon said:
I do agree with you in that it is close, if not the time, to move beyond the forum and let the world in on this amazing phenomenon known as RED. Thanks for the support, the confidence and the input.
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So, Big Jon, when are you gonna convince your buddy Jim to sponsor a NASCAR? Travis Kvapil was running without a sponsor last weekend. He was driving a white ford (#28, I think) with little or no clutter. Imagine what a RED dot on the hood of that thing would have looked like! Millions of people from NASCAR nation would have been asking "What is that?!!!"
 
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