RED One marketing campaign

[Nathan Buxton]

I think we are coming very near to the climax of the "make or break" point of this camera. It is clearly in a distinctly positive incline, but factors beyond RED's control are just beginning to develop into major hurdles for the camera, and ultimately, the whole RED/4K format.

For example, word of small issues with these very early models of camera are spreading like wildfire, predominantly through people in the right places to make it hurt.

Also, confusion is getting this camera into the wrong hands, inevitably. The price point is so dramatically different for what it offers (and doesn't offer) that potential customers are being confused. I am not saying the price point needs to be changed, it needs to be defined: What kind of system do you get for X amount of dollars?

And the major obvious one: Workflow. Nobody knows whats up or down until they get their hands on the nitty gritty. I personally haven't and don't expect to be lucky enough to have the opportunity anytime soon, but by observing the reaction of the major RED adopting professionals, I can say that major major resources need to be put into the sale of the workflow. Not in the literal dollars and cents meaning of the word "sale," rather... helping people make the transition easier on themselves. ("Make the switch to digital cinema easier with RED Industrial Boot Camps (r)") By simply getting the knowledge that the workflow EXISTS and is easy to adopt would be worth its weight in gold (does knowledge even weigh anything?).

So... the marketing campaign is obviously not a public one. No TV ads no newspaper ads, we're talking simply manpower and presentation media, pamphlets, DVDs, videos, some particular internet material as well. Just get the knowledge out there, officially, and SOON.

I know the RED Team has been thinking of marketing, and are probably working on it already. I think NOW is a good time to jump on the awareness campaigns. Not only direct hands on boot camps at RED in California, but by physically getting the knowledge directly to the people who need it. For even though many might think it is early to start the marketing, letting people know that this technology is new is good too. I bet some old time film makers think RED is old technology because they have heard of digital since 1999. They have to be made aware of the advantages. They also need to be made aware of the rapid development of the whole system and how early adoption has its benefits and will be beneficial in the long term.


Just a couple pennies.

 

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I thought I could give a few cents to this discussion as well.

Issues: Well, first you have to acknowledge that it is indeed a new camera and that RED has taken a different route. They choose to get the camera out there as soon as possible. And that can be seen in a couple of ways.

Customer 1: It's a bad idea, because they will not take in to regard that it is indeed a new camera and that RED tried to get the camera out there to let the "beta" testers help ironing out the problems. They only feel cheated.

Customer 2: Acknowledge that the camera is in "beta" and use it there after until it's considered complete (By the public not RED)

RED: Choose deliberately to get the camera out fast to again get a lot of people testing it and thereby getting the bugs out faster. They also get feed back in a way that I don't see many of the traditional companies would. Both in speed and width. 1000 people find the bugs and problems faster then 10 and 1000 have setups and scenarios that will take the 10 "in house" testers a much longer time to get through.

Marketing are no longer only restricted to TV, newspapers and radio. I'd say that RED's marketing campaign is one that will be written about in history books. They made their product known to everybody in the industry with the cost of setting up a forum. (Not including NAB/IBC and Ted's marketing trips)

I have to say, I don't think any of us are in a position to question Jim's marketing skills. Although he says that they don't know what they are doing it seems to me they do, and not only know, they are breaking new grounds in internet marketing.

If I do have to comment and criticize on something, it's their own webpage, web shop and sales service.

I feel their webpage is below standard and do not reach the expectations you have on a company like RED. Noted this is only beauty not actual functionality which works.

The web shop is buggy - and do not give me "I can trust these guys with my life savings" Then again, it does it's job but could be improved.

The last one is not directed to any person at RED more a general issue. I would prioritize to improve how you handle/manage customers/payment and deliveries. When your number is up you feel in the dark and a ticket based system would help this. When your number is up you are sent a mail. You can login to your account, change your contacts and addresses, add or delete parts to your order (this works today but are poorly implemented). After that you should have different payment methods and can at anytime login to your RED account to view if RED received your money, if the camera is shipped what tracking number it has and so on. Every time anything changes the system send an automatic e-mail letting the customers know what's going on.

Always let the customer know what's going on, not by manual labour by travis but by automatic ticket based systems.

 

[Torrey Loomis]

Couldn't be happier...

Couldn't be happier...

We own #20 and #21.

We just wrapped up a feature film on #21. Our #20 is currently in Japan.

Both of these projects required a lot of resources. The cameras behaved flawlessly during principal shooting, and have operated nearly perfectly since we received them in August 2007.

When I needed assistance, the RED team bent over backwards to help--making a few heroic saves like when we busted a power cable and needed a replacement ASAP.

I couldn't be happier with the product and service from RED. This is by far THE most attentive team in this industry--hands down.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
Outfitter to the World's Foremost Apple Professionals
2600 East Bidwell Street, Suite 280
Folsom, CA 95630
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
tloomis@silverado.cc
http://www.Silverado.cc

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Two kinds of people

Two kinds of people

I come across two kinds of people in the industry. Those who are genuinely excited that we're using the Red One. And those who think we're taking a terrible risk. The former group want to find out all they can. The latter group continue to repeat ancient rumours about noisy images, overheating and all that stuff. They sound genuinely amazed that we'd work with this "experimental camera".

Both camps worry (rightly so) about workflow. I've had several people make contact with regards to renting my Red, but they acknowledge they would probably want to hire my DP and workflow-team, to make sure they have usable product. I understand their problem. No matter how many RD3 files you download, it's not the same as having a camera, shooting and loading entire projects yourself. Red workflows take a long time to develop, and renters may be reluctant at first. On the other hand, I hear that Lemac's Red Ones (in Sydney and Melbourne) are in constant demand from renters. So maybe the only people who fear the workflow are those who never intend to use it.

If Red are concerned by negative whispering, they will need to make the workflow really simple. My first impression was that Red would be easier to load and edit than HDV. In truth, I find it about as laborious as 35mm. I'm not complaining, but there are many who will.

 

[Omnius]

For example, word of small issues with these very early models of camera are spreading like wildfire, predominantly through people in the right places to make it hurt. . . . .

I really doubt that is going to hurt the RED One's reputation in the long run.

If word of SMALL issues with early models is spreading like wild fire, then once those issues get fixed and rectified word of that will spread just as fast, especially through people in "The Right Places".

Though this camera is new. It is steadily building a positive track record.

People who use this camera love this camera and have more good things to say about it than not.
That track record of success is going to redeem the reputation of the RED in the long run if not in the near future when it comes to any small issues that might be rearing it's head in these early days.

These are walking stages. When the baby grows up and starts to run it will leave the others behind eating dust!

Pessimism sucks.
Let me tell you a little story I once heard.

There was once a small group of very talented, intelligent and optimistic Americans who wanted to build a computer that could be used by everyone. . . A "Personal Computer" if you will.
It wasn't going to be some big monstrosity that took up half the floor space in the house, rather it was going to be something that could simply sit on the top of a desk. This small group of Americans didn't even have a proper office or manufacturing site and the first of these computers where made in the living room of someone's house.

When word of this got to places like Australia and New Zealand, people scoffed at the idea and said it was never going to happen, that it couldn't be done. The whole idea was met with a lot of pessimism and criticism.

Despite what ever pessimism and attempted tall poppy syndrome Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs and Ronald Wyane may or may not have heard about, they continued on.

I'm sure the early Apple computers had some small issues in those early days, and that word of it spread like fire, predominantly through people in the right places to make it hurt. . .

Apple Computers ain't hurting today though, is it?

And as an Apple computer user, neither am I.

he he he

 

[Max Fischer]

I really doubt that is going to hurt the RED One's reputation in the long run.

I know there are some people who come onto the boards who would love to see this camera fail, but it's not going to happen.

If word of SMALL issues with early models is spreading like wild fire, then once those issues get fixed and rectified word of that will spread just as fast, especially through people in "The Right Places".

Though this camera is new. It is steadily building a positive track record.

People who use this camera love this camera and have more good things to say about it than not.
That track record of success is going to redeem the reputation of the RED in the long run if not in the near future when it comes to any small issues that might be rearing it's head in these early days.

These are walking stages. When the baby grows up and starts to run it will leave the others behind eating dust!

I'm sorry, but as someone who REALLY wants the RED to be a success, I don't agree with the "walking stages" analogy, and I'm getting a bit frustrated with the "RED is GOD" attitude on the forums. I've got 2 cameras reserved, and these are mainly going to be rental cameras. I need concrete answers and guaranteed solutions to ALL of the bugs, so that I can pass them along to my customers. If they can't get that from me, they'll just keep shooting film or tape.

If I can convince them to shoot with the RED (and most of them want to), and the RED fails for them on the first attempt, I think that the RED will become a doorstop for me.

Do I want the RED to be a success? Yes.

Has RED done a good job of giving clear, concise information to its customers and potential customers? No (Just look at the countless workflow threads...please, all I want is a simple answer, not from forum users, from the manufacturer!).

Has the camera lived up to it's hype? Yes and no. The image quality is great, but without scaling, a true hard mount, software bugs, workflow issues...

The benefits must outweigh the faults. For an indie filmmaker going around and shooting stock footage or shorts, it's not a problem if the camera crashes or he has to spend 10 hours of his own time just to download the footage. For the Soderberghs, it's not a problem to have multiple cameras and hundreds of virgin CF cards, plus a full post production team. But what about the regional production company that's about to shoot a $100K commercial? Can they risk a reshoot? Countless hours in post? NO.

At this point I'm seriously thinking about delaying delivery. I can't risk being a beta tester.

So here's my alternative to the "walking stages" analogy. A racing team develops a new engine and chassis that performs better than any of the competition. The team sponsors are encouraged, but reluctant because it still has some issues to be worked out. The season starts, and at the first 3 races, the car outqualifies everything it's up against. It starts on the pole everytime. But halfway through the each race, it blows an engine and has to retire. The team goes back and tests the engine, makes it more reliable, but it still can't last through a whole race. What should they do? What should their sponsors do?

Sorry to be a downer, but if you have a better solution, feel free to express it! Max

 

[Omnius]

. . . I've got 2 cameras reserved, and these are mainly going to be rental cameras. I need concrete answers and guaranteed solutions to ALL of the bugs, so that I can pass them along to my customers.....

Read below

. . . . Customer 1: It's a bad idea, because they will not take in to regard that it is indeed a new camera and that RED tried to get the camera out there to let the "beta" testers help ironing out the problems. They only feel cheated.

Customer 2: Acknowledge that the camera is in "beta" and use it there after until it's considered complete (By the public not RED)

RED: Choose deliberately to get the camera out fast to again get a lot of people testing it and thereby getting the bugs out faster. They also get feed back in a way that I don't see many of the traditional companies would. Both in speed and width. 1000 people find the bugs and problems faster then 10 and 1000 have setups and scenarios that will take the 10 "in house" testers a much longer time to get through.

Who wasn't paying attention to these basic facts before ordering their cameras?

 

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Read below
Who wasn't paying attention to these basic facts before ordering their cameras?

It seems there are a few people that weren't.

I consider myself as Customer 2. Although I would not be afraid to use it on a bigger project.

 

[Omnius]

It seems there are a few people that weren't.

I consider myself as Customer 2. Although I would not be afraid to use it on a bigger project.

Ditto

 

[Pig]

When I needed assistance, the RED team bent over backwards to help...

To be realistic; that effort afforded you by RED is NOT something ALL RED owners will receive.
It wasn't realistic to give out cell phone numbers to several thousand RED owners after all. So RED certainly was more attentive to the original 100 owners than subsequent orders, precisely because of what the original poster in this thread pointed out.
Whereas I am sure the first 100 were treated well, one could surmise that the customer support/ordering process has declined since then.
Understandably so, of course.

Now, I'd simply be happy to receive our invoice for our RED ONE, and not someone else's invoice, like we did.
And poorly written DOC file attachments, and emails without signatures whatsoever don't exactly instill very high confidence in the company's professionalism.

 

[dalemccready]

I find that small bad rumours circulate much faster and easier than good news. I found it our responsibility when setting up our Steadicam service that it be totally bullet proof. One bad report could derail hires, so anything we could do to ensure that people came away happy we did.

It's a sad fact that I more often get people wanting to rip into Red than support the idea. Maybe it's human nature.

 

[David Battistella]

I have spoken at a few events up here in Toronto. WHat I am seeing is the same sort of thing. There are two mindsets, EMBRACE and CAUTION.

Most of what I talk to people about is the brilliant workflow that has been created. Many people like to complain about render times, etc, but the fact is that this is only going to get BETTER. (remember when we used to bitch about digitizing tape)

I think most people who go through the anxiety of RED are simply misinformed. They are still getting their heads around tapeless workflows , they don't fully understand how intelligent the whole back end of the system is and how much flexibility it affords you.

Many of the images we have seen from RED and of people's rigs are of camera's that are severely decked out in "Feature film mode". I think that this can be intimidating to the mid range producer. They are used to seeing Betacams or camera's that are easily operated by one person.

Steve Gibby and Jim Jannard are examples of the camera being used in a one person setup. I plan to shoot a lot of stuff on my own with the RED. But I think there is a bit of a misnomer that this camera is for features and commercials and not for documentary or small production.

The camera does NOT need a lot of people around it and I am not sure that people really understand that yet.

The bottom line for me is that I made an investment in this camera technology because of the PEOPLE associated with it and because they have demonstrated a massive desire to succeed. That is the tipping point.

I trust the team and I trust that they will continue to innovate.

I hope that they do more as a company to bring mainstream production on board and they promote the smallest film makers as much as they have the big guns.

In one year we will all be blown away by how much further everything has come.

As far as marketing goes. 2000 camera's out in the world is great marketing. People will be picking up a RED over a lot of other camera's to make their films, tv shows and commercials and yes, even weddings. and that is ALL GOOD because they did set out to build the camera for the rest of us.

David

 

[Max Fischer]

Omnius,

Don't be an A$$ and tell me I wasn't paying attention; maybe you're the one not paying attention, because you didn't notice that my serial #s are in the 1200s. I DO NOT expect a product with only 3000+ orders to still be in beta mode at #1200.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I used the camera on a 100k national commercial and must say that apart from the missing EVF and the non working simultanous HDSDI out the camera worked flawlessly. Postproduktion for commercials in a 20 to 45 sec. range is easy to accomplish, even in a tight timing assumed you compare turanround times with that you typically have with a 35mm workflow.

Hans

EDIT: Although I must admit that the post guys must be "creative" at least... REDCine is beta and AVID, well...

 

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Omnius,

Don't be an A$$ and tell me I wasn't paying attention; maybe you're the one not paying attention, because you didn't notice that my serial #s are in the 1200s. I DO NOT expect a product with only 3000+ orders to still be in beta mode at #1200.

I don't want to be an ass... BUT!

Jim made a deal saying if the camera don't live up to your expectations you are always free to cancel or delay your delivery - no questions asked. RED has their cards on the table and always have. It really up to you if you want the camera or not, no one forces you to buy.

If the camera don't fit your current needs, don't be mad at RED. See what other options you have that does fit your bussiness/project. RED never made any promises on what the camera was going to be like. They just shared their thoughts and I think this is where some people fail in their thinking.

Most people know some specs, and with those specs their build their dream camera in the head. What they want and how it is supposed to work. That dream becomes reality with time and when RED don't deliver their dream people get mad.

The deal is simple, to buy or not to buy. You know what RED sells. Do you need what they sell or what you want? Because it's not always RED will sell what you want.

 

[Max Fischer]

Andreas, very well said! I agree, and that's why I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I pull the trigger...

 

[mezmo]

Hi Nathan ,There is a tendancy to oversell Red by some Red renters and owners.
Red is what it is, a low cost alternative to other Digital solutions
with the unique abilty to lens with 35mm FOV.
I think the camera is overpriced (this may change as more bodies
are produced) for most rental situations.
We offered a Red recently for a commercial shoot but it came in at a
Varicam Rental rate. Client went Varicam, it's a known system and he wanted a tape at end of shoot.
Red owner has since reluctantly come down and offered the camera on
a 'one off' rate for a commercial in the next few weeks, claiming the
system is better than 35mm film, 4K is the way of the future, your mad if you shoot any other digital format, yet he doesn't have a professional lens compliment, a backup camera body and a usable workflow ( for TVC work)
in place.
Despite this our new client is happy to play with Red, is aware of it's limitations and WE (production company)have worked out a workflow that suits him.
I wouldn't be worried about marketing Red to professional users, many
know exactly what Red is, it's limitations, it's advantages, what it costs and where it comes from.
A whole lot more work needs to be done on Rental Marketing and PRICING,
also connecting Renters to usable, fast and cost effective workflow solutions.
I agree the honeymoon's over and Red owners need to think seriously about
building a solid business behind their cameras.
Mezmo.

 

[Jannard]

I am very comfortable representing that one will have no more trouble shooting RED today than any other professional camera, all things considered. The RED ONE has been an open book from day one and been under more scrutiny than any other camera in history. Make sure you put the competition under the same microscope before you post.

Do you really want to talk about film having no issues? Do you really want to go back and shoot on tape? Can you think of any easier format to shoot that compares to 4k REDCODE 36 on CF cards? Free software. Price/performance?

The RED ONE boots up, shoots in the cold and the heat and delivers stunning images. Most every feature has been enabled. Along with a few surprises that were never promised. Plus, we listen.

We acknowledge that we are not perfect. But we are working harder and faster than any company in the industry.

If you are not ready to trust a RED ONE or us as a company... don't buy one. Or wait. But I can tell you with complete confidence that a RED ONE is feature worthy... today. It has shot completed features, is shooting features and is set to shoot more features everyday.

The skeptics are NOT those that have received cameras. Read the posts. And if a customer HAS received a camera and is not happy... just give me a call.

Jim

 

[Gunleik Groven]

And congrats on that Harry Potter thing...


Gunleik

 

[Anthony Gratl]

For an indie filmmaker going around and shooting stock footage or shorts, it's not a problem if the camera crashes or he has to spend 10 hours of his own time just to download the footage.

Really? As an indi filmmaker, I've got news for you gearhead. That's a big problem. I'm not buying this camera thinking that's going to happen with any kind of frequency.

So here's my alternative to the "walking stages" analogy. A racing team develops a new engine and chassis that performs better than any of the competition. The team sponsors are encouraged, but reluctant because it still has some issues to be worked out. The season starts, and at the first 3 races, the car outqualifies everything it's up against. It starts on the pole everytime. But halfway through the each race, it blows an engine and has to retire. The team goes back and tests the engine, makes it more reliable, but it still can't last through a whole race. What should they do? What should their sponsors do?

Your analogy is incorrect. I think there have been a few random instances where people have reported that their "Red Engine" has blown up and can't complete the shoot, but for the vast majority of users, the reports back from the field have been that Red is finishing the race faster and faster...sometimes perhaps, it needs to go in for an unscheduled pitstop to get an extra oil change, or a wingtip adjusted for better flow, and occassionally a wheel falls off the thing, but I think the days of engines blowing are behind us.....now if we can get the thing to drive the workflow to the winners circle efficiently, instead of pushing the workflow, we'll be winning the races hands down.