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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Menus visible in HD-SDI output?

Shawn Nelson

Shawn Nelson

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I don't own an HD-SDI monitor but back when I last checked it using a rental house's monitor, I could not see the menus (but I could see the top edges of them, teasing me). Was it ever added to be able to see the menus on an external monitor via the HD-SDI?
 
No, not yet.

The SDI seems to take the 1280x848 HDMI image and extract the central 1280x720 out of it. That cuts off all the info bar at the top and all the menus at the bottom, although there's a little bit of a tab that pops up on the right that you can see.
 
Yeah that's what I thought. Sheesh, that sucks! I was hoping they'd enable a "View Menu" toggle. Hopefully this is in Build 15. Red guys?
 
if i recall correctly ..
it depends on what device is active ..
HDMI = you get the info if monitor can do 1280x848 ..
EFV+PVW = you do not get the info out HDMI (1280x720)
 
Im using EVF+PVW out of the HMDI port to a HDTV and you get as shawn described, the top tabs of the menus and monitor guides
 
You don't get menus. That also means you don't get histograms, waveform, or any of that stuff. What you can get is focus overlay and zebras, and I think you could also get false color too. I use it with focus overlay and zebras on, all the time -- until the EVF gets here.

The HDMI monitor is much more useful (much, much more useful) than HD-SDI. But I just went and shot some Civil War re-enactment stuff today using just the HD-SDI monitor and it went well. I think I can limp along until the EVF gets here. But I do really wish the menus would show up.
 
Hd-sdi

Hd-sdi

The reason menus are not present on the HD-SDI is that output is intended to be a video tap. Menus are available on the RED-EVF, and / or RED-LCD. And if you need a remote EVF; then menus are available on the HDMI if the monitor active parameter is set to HDMI(DVI).

The items that do appear on the HD-SDI are - Look Around a.k.a SuroundView(tm) frame guides, picture center, safe action, safe title, current timecode value, current clip name and focus assist (when in overlay mode)
 
Stuart English said:
The reason menus are not present on the HD-SDI is that output is intended to be a video tap.
Click to expand...

I understand the idea that it would be undesirable to have overlays permanently obscuring the picture area, but since menus are only brought up temporarily to change settings, I can't see it being a problem if you have the choice to make them appear there. Equally I would vote for the option to have stuff like histograms (maybe at 50% opacity) in the picture area when required. My Red spent most of this week up on a motion control rig, and since it was not feasible to run an HDMI cable the distance needed, we were limited to HD-SDI for monitoring. It would have been very useful if the DoP could have seen a histogram while the rig ran through the move.
 
Stuart English said:
The reason menus are not present on the HD-SDI is that output is intended to be a video tap.
Click to expand...

Unless there is a technical limitation to doing it, I think it is always wisest to let the users decide how to use the gear.

If menus are unavailable on HDSDI simply because 'zat is not zee way you must use zee camera' it is a short-sighted decision. (zee accent is meant to give you a picture of engineers at Arri)
 
At a shoot last week we ran the Preview out to an onboard Monitor (SDI IN). We routed the client monitor from the SDI Out of that monitor (so they were both viewing the same image without menus). We also had the ReD LCD hooked up with it's normal settings. By holding down the top right LCD power button I was able to quickly toggle between the LCD (w/ menus) and the Preview monitors (w/o menus).

Maybe the rest of you know this trick already, but until that moment I was under the impression that I had to go into the Monitor Menu and manually choose between LCD and Preview. But by powering on/off this somehow allows the LCD to override the other outputs (even while set to Preview mode).

I know this is not a true solution for multi-monitoring, but I have to say it made life much easier and was so quick the client never really noticed.

99
 
CrewPix.com said:
Unless there is a technical limitation to doing it, I think it is always wisest to let the users decide how to use the gear.
Click to expand...

In order to get the video out as fast as possible without increasing frame delay, the outputs are pulled from the same source. (things may change over time though...)

Technical/hardware limitations and time and main reasons for the current state of features. We always try to do what's best for the user.
 
Clean HD-SDI or Preview feed would make my day with my clients :)

As in, nothing but image so it can be recorded clean.

Thanks,

Paul
 
Menus on HD-SDI

Menus on HD-SDI

CrewPix.com said:
Unless there is a technical limitation to doing it, I think it is always wisest to let the users decide how to use the gear.
Click to expand...

Undeniable CrewPix. And if you are operating the camera on a crane that's a reasonable reason to have menus available on HD-SDI. The reason they are not offered on HD-SDI at this time though is because the graphics engine is busy rendering menus etc for the EVF / LCD / HDMI.

By cropping the output of the graphics engine we can add the critical frame guide, safe action, zebras, focus assist and timecode / clip data that you can see on HD-SDI, but to put full menus and histograms etc on top of the video requires re-programming of the graphics engine resources.

That also brings up two other questions -

a) To see menus implies that you want remote control to change something.

b) Do you have alternative monitoring options available ( 720p waveform monitor etc)

So at the end of the day the current "choice" not to have menus on HD-SDI is both operational and engineering driven. However, the feedback is welcomed.
 
I stated this before, but the HDMI output will not the first choice, it is the HD-SDI. For different reasons... So first it would be a must to have at least a waveform monitor AND histogram switchable on it. So the biggest issue is to ship the damn EVF to see the menu etc. and bring measurement to the HD-SDI for picture control.

thx
rainer
 
Menus on HD-SDI

Menus on HD-SDI

rainer said:
I stated this before, but the HDMI output will not the first choice, it is the HD-SDI. For different reasons... So first it would be a must to have at least a waveform monitor AND histogram switchable on it. So the biggest issue is to ship the damn EVF to see the menu etc. and bring measurement to the HD-SDI for picture control.

thx
rainer
Click to expand...

I accept discussion is biased by the limited availability of the EVF. But assuming all options are available, the normal priority for menus generation / overlays the camera uses is - 1. EVF. 2.LCD 3. HD-SDI. which reflects cameraman, assistant, director respectively. If you take one of these away, the remaining units move up in priority.
 
But Stuart, as you said in a post before and I wrote some days ago, whats on crane? whats on steadycam? And do you think is a coax cable or a hdmi cable safer? What is with the all other equipment which is based on HD-SDI? The RED-LCD is not a bad thing, but there are some issues ie. viewing angle and some more... that we decided to use really good monitors and they are based on HD-SDI.
 
Stuart English said:
By cropping the output of the graphics engine we can add the critical frame guide, safe action, zebras, focus assist and timecode / clip data that you can see on HD-SDI, but to put full menus and histograms etc on top of the video requires re-programming of the graphics engine resources
Click to expand...

I understand that. But as a (temporary?) compromise, what if we could toggle the menus/histogram etc between the current outside 720p position and a higher up position within the 720p area, and they appeared in that position on both the LCD/EVF and the HD-SDI output. That way only a crop is necessary, not generating the graphics twice.

Also for crane/mo-co shots it would be useful if the dropped frame indicator appeared on the HD-SDI output, even if it was only for a few seconds after you cut, so you could confirm that no frames were dropped without bringing the camera down.
 
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