Hands on accessories before buying?

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Makes sense... It would be annoying to deal with 4,000 reservation holders casually "dropping by" to check things out.

I'm mainly trying to wrap my head around issues with 19mm vs. 15mm rods, and all the fascinating complications that arise therein.

Victor, just look at the $8,000 fluid heads on the B&H site and I think it puts these prices in perspective. My Cooke 20-100 + Camera, etc. puts me in the VERY expensive tripod support system category...

EDIT: Hadn't noticed Pg. 2 of the thread, so I wrote this before the little flame fart that just occurred. Trademark that. Just wanted to point out that I was at NAB 2007, and another event like that would be suitable at this point - but perhaps just for those who've already put our money where our mouths are...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Cinewalt, find a local who already has one (should be several near you) and find out when would be a decent time to check out their config (maybe coinciding with a public demo), I've had a shitload of such requests and I live up here in Portland.

I wonder if Red couldn't make a production pack that would bolt to consumer cameras to get their volume up to 10,000 or even 100,000. People who couldn't afford a Red could still pay $500 for a cage and various other things.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

Victor, clearly you haven't been purchasing or researching film production gear. It's a small, vertical industry with low volume production—serving a community of demanding professionals who put well-engineered, high precision gear through it's paces every day. The stuff has to hold up and perform optically and mechanically in conditions that quickly bring mediocre gear to its knees in no time. That means you have to amortize the costs of engineering, product development, manufacturing, advertising and support, etc. and build that into every unit you create (with enough profit to keep you in business, and fund the next R&D process or you WILL go out of business).

When you're facing low volumes (compared to consumer markets) that means your price per unit HAS to be higher.

Trust me. When you are spending 30-70K a day on production, you don't whine about the cost of a camera handle. You whine like hell if it breaks in the middle of the best take.

What Red is doing is something NO other company has done yet—deliver professional cine gear at a fraction of what the traditional players have been able to do. Not only that, they are delivering a breakthrough product. How? Because they have taken a different path to development. A path that is very akin to the open source world of computer software.

The have built a community of loyal customers, and are embracing the community as development partners. So when you start flinging accusations about pricing, you would do well to do your homework first, and then maybe you'll recognize that Jim has done something extraordinary for all of us.

 

[Steve Harryman]

I haven't posted much on RedUser yet---but this one deserved a response. To the folks who think the accessories are too expensive, you need to remember that this is a camera system that is ready to bring 4K to the world, and a slew of other innovative features right now (plus more in the future)---all at a tremendous price point. Sony is talking about releasing a 4k camera in the future, somewhere around $100,000-150,000. Plus you have access to folks like Jim, Jarred and the other team members through a forum. Try this level of personal correspondence with Sony, JVC or Panny. Some folks seem to have forgotten all this and sound like they are taking alot for granted already. I'm not.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

FWIW, I used to be one of the ones grousing about acc pricing. And while I would still enjoy them being cheaper, I know longer ask for it because after using these accessories for a few months they are supremely well made. You are getting your money's worth!

 

[Alexis Hanawalt]

So, presuming I don't get everything right when I order my accessories - once I have the camera and I decide I need 5 more top handles and a dozen red arms, (exaggerating), what's the turnaround on getting additional accessories?

I'd hate to realize that I really want to mount a portable mixer somewhere on the camera and that if I'd only added that one piece, I could do it - and have to wait MONTHS to get it.

 

[Rich Schaefer]

I just got all of my RED accessories, they are very nice!!! The Handles are beefy and solid! as positive feeling as my Moviecam Compact handles!

My camera feels like it will stay in my hands if I end up hanging out of a pick-up to shoot a dragster @ 90mph!

Can you make it? do it! Can you find it cheaper????

I paid less for my RED than my Panasonic SDX900! That alone speaks volumes!

Holiday Cheers,
Rich

 

[chuckt]

FWIW, I used to be one of the ones grousing about acc pricing. And while I would still enjoy them being cheaper, I know longer ask for it because after using these accessories for a few months they are supremely well made. You are getting your money's worth!

I do not think RED is custom manufacturing any of these. The whole system is put together using commercially available pieces. Like putting together a Computer at home using parts from a local store. RED might be able to get a better deal for parts than any individual buyer can. The way I figure, the camera with all accessories will cost about $80K. This is not much higher than the cost of digital camera from Panasonic. Sony sell some cameras for over $100K.
I have been trying to figure out the difference between RED and competition. RED will give you a Camera. Then you have to figure out how to use it. Many those who ordered the camera are trying to sell them because they realised they do not need them. Many rental houses who have REDs are not fully booked and are looking for rental customers. Those who tried to flip their cameras for a profit are finding it rather difficult. So, RED is still not red hot.

4K is a lot closer to 35 mm than 2K or 1080P. RED allows you to shoot at or near the quality of 35 mm film at a low initial cost.
But, what do you do from there? In real world, theaters project 35 mm film. So, 4K needs to be edited using low res editinmg tools currently in use and then transfer a lower res to film (about 835 lines of resolution). Most of that 4K was wasteful.

Then there is the cost of archiving the material. Hard Drives are not a good archival medium. reliably archiving digital data is extremely expensive over the years. If you add the cost of all these, the total cost of production and archiving is much higher than film. So, big studios will go with 35 mm film. 35 mm film costs more initially but can be safely used as inexpensive archival medium for 50 to 100 years.
Sony and panasonic and Canon, sell not just a camera, but complete solutions. They design and manufacture all the parts and then put them together in sleek consumer friendly packages, and sell millions of them at low prices. They sell cameras, all accessories, software and hardware to acquire, process, store, broadcast, and display content. The whole solution. That is why big companies stick with them.

1K (1080P), 2K, and 4k were all ideas of Sony. But, they do not currently sell 4K cameras. For those who need it, sony makes some expensive custom contraptions but nothing cheap. But, if you need 4K now, you have to go with RED.
Most production companies do not need 4K for real life use.
Shooting in 4K and then editing it down to 1080P or SD is costly. Why do that, when you can use one of those sonys or panasonics to get what you want directly?
So, buy RED only for intended purposes: to shoot big time movies at 4K.
If you need 4K shoot, then you are working with big budget and price of accessories is not much concern to you.
If your budget is low, do not let the low cost of RED body fool you. You will be better off with one of them Sony / Panasonic at a relatively lower total cost.

 

[Evin Grant]

Chuckt, you really haven't been doing your homework. Almost every assumption in you're post is contrary to the current (Working) Red workflow and delivery models.

 

[John Hunt]

I do not think RED is custom manufacturing any of these. The whole system is put together using commercially available pieces.
Like putting together a Computer at home using parts from a local store. RED might be able to get a better deal for parts than any individual buyer can.

Well, RED's not machining their own bolts or washers, but handles, brackets, housings - that's from-scratch design and machining. It's expensive.

The way I figure, the camera with all accessories will cost about $80K. This is not much higher than the cost of digital camera from Panasonic. Sony sell some cameras for over $100K.

I will own a fully-operational RED for my purposes for less than half of your quote - and that is replacing my very tired $120K Sony camera. I'm delighted.

I have been trying to figure out the difference between RED and competition. RED will give you a Camera. Then you have to figure out how to use it. Many those who ordered the camera are trying to sell them because they realised they do not need them. Many rental houses who have REDs are not fully booked and are looking for rental customers. Those who tried to flip their cameras for a profit are finding it rather difficult. So, RED is still not red hot.

It's a professional tool. It's in the midst of development. If you expect a Sony consumer-friendly product, you're in the wrong place.

So, buy RED only for intended purposes: to shoot big time movies at 4K.
If you need 4K shoot, then you are working with big budget and price of accessories is not much concern to you.
If your budget is low, do not let the low cost of RED body fool you. You will be better off with one of them Sony / Panasonic at a relatively lower total cost.

That's silly. Like saying the speed limit is 70 mph, so don't buy a car that goes faster than 70 mph. (Ralph Nader would probably back you up here). There are a load of quality benefits from shooting 4K and delivering on 1080p - do your research. Archving on LT0-3 or 4 is dirt cheap compared to HDCAM or D5 tape alternatives, and the LTO tape will probably last longer. And now you have 4k footage for future delivery. That's gold to us in the stock footage biz, and for producers that would like to later deliver a 4k version of their product.

 

[Jarred Land]

John i think you win post of the day.

 

[Seth Larney]

Hi Chuckt,

Please don't take this the wrong way (just trying to help) but most if not all of your assumptions here are very off base.

I do not think RED is custom manufacturing any of these. The whole system is put together using commercially available pieces. Like putting together a Computer at home using parts from a local store. RED might be able to get a better deal for parts than any individual buyer can. The way I figure, the camera with all accessories will cost about $80K.

This is just plain wrong. All of RED's accessories are a product of tonnes of industrial design combined with manufacturing resources (which they may or may not outsource), you CANNOT buy these same items 'off the shelf'. RED has invested alot of cold cash in this process.

The way I figure, the camera with all accessories will cost about $80K. This is not much higher than the cost of digital camera from Panasonic. Sony sell some cameras for over $100K.

I'm not really sure what you mean by comparing these ? It seems like you are saying that a complete RED package is not bad value at 80K ? I would completely agree with you, but I think you'll find that a very usable RED package should will run you much less than this.

I have been trying to figure out the difference between RED and competition. RED will give you a Camera. Then you have to figure out how to use it. Many those who ordered the camera are trying to sell them because they realised they do not need them. Many rental houses who have REDs are not fully booked and are looking for rental customers. Those who tried to flip their cameras for a profit are finding it rather difficult. So, RED is still not red hot.

The camera has only been shipping for a few months. Many aspects of the workflow are still developing. Even the actual camera is still evolving. In time the market will evolve and adapt to learn how to use these new technologies, as they are the next generation. I think it's a little unfair to make a generalization like this. I think a more accurate generalization would be that there are literally thousands of potential customers out there NOW, who are dieing to get their hands on a RED ONE !.

4K is a lot closer to 35 mm than 2K or 1080P. RED allows you to shoot at or near the quality of 35 mm film at a low initial cost.
But, what do you do from there? In real world, theaters project 35 mm film. So, 4K needs to be edited using low res editinmg tools currently in use and then transfer a lower res to film (about 835 lines of resolution). Most of that 4K was wasteful.

What you may not understand here is that when you perform an edit with lower resolution material (as you are describing), then if you want to deliver with the higher resolution, you perform an 'online' and conform and deliver at whatever resolution you wish (up to your 4K). This is a completely standard method of working in a film workflow and is exactly how you would work if you had shot with film, there is nothing new nor inconvenient here.

Then there is the cost of archiving the material. Hard Drives are not a good archival medium. reliably archiving digital data is extremely expensive over the years. If you add the cost of all these, the total cost of production and archiving is much higher than film. So, big studios will go with 35 mm film. 35 mm film costs more initially but can be safely used as inexpensive archival medium for 50 to 100 years.

LTO Tape is extremely reliable and much cheaper than film. Also, if you are to recover your archived film in the future you will need to perform another telecine, which adds to the cost, not to mention that once telecine'd that data has to end up on hard drives ANYWAY. With all of this considered, archinving REDCODE RAW to LTO-3 is a MUCH MUCH cheaper method of archival than shooting and archiving film (given that you would most likely perform a DI anyway). There are tonnes of other variables involved but this is the short of it.

Sony and panasonic and Canon, sell not just a camera, but complete solutions. They design and manufacture all the parts and then put them together in sleek consumer friendly packages, and sell millions of them at low prices. They sell cameras, all accessories, software and hardware to acquire, process, store, broadcast, and display content. The whole solution. That is why big companies stick with them.

I assume by 'big companies' you are talking about studios ? Are we still talking about film production here, or consumer video ?

DOP's and directors have a large input in what cameras are used on films, BUT studios and investors/insurance agents also play a large part in this choice because they like cameras and workflows that are established and RELIABLE. Now, RED will establish this as time passes, any product/workflow requires time to establish itself. Production companies care ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for consumer packaging and marketing (although they do care about support, which RED has already demonstrated they are above and beyond the call of duty on). Also, the companies that you mention DO NOT make cinema-quality cameras at low prices, period. They make consumer video cameras to shoot home movies on at low prices, and consumers love consumer packaging because well, they are consumers.

1K (1080P), 2K, and 4k were all ideas of Sony. But, they do not currently sell 4K cameras. For those who need it, sony makes some expensive custom contraptions but nothing cheap. But, if you need 4K now, you have to go with RED.
Most production companies do not need 4K for real life use.
Shooting in 4K and then editing it down to 1080P or SD is costly. Why do that, when you can use one of those sonys or panasonics to get what you want directly?

Firstly, Sony do have plans for a 4K camera (I was told directly by a sony rep in response to my question about how they feel about the RED ONE), RED just beat them to it. Also, why would Sony release a 4K camera when up until this point people have been using their cameras to make movies, out of no other choice ? It takes a company like RED to shake things up for the big companies to make moves sometimes, they don't care about what we want, they care about making money. This is the difference in philosophy between RED and these companies (Jim didn't need to do this, he is passionate about what he is doing). There are debates about whether 4K is needed now, but not many can argue that 4K downsampled to 2K or 1080p won't give you more options as well as quality.

RED ONE can deliver stunning 1080p (insert low res of your choice) images. So that the answer to your question of why use RED. Also, as a random example, if you are shooting on something like a Panasonic Varicam then you will likely be recording to a HDCAM deck at 720p, in this instance (once the HD-SDI outputs are live and full quality) you would be able to do exactly the same thing with RED, bypassing REDCODE and its associated workflow all together, its your choice. If you find that all of the workflow options, either now, or in the future, are not for you, then the answer is : use another camera. The point is that for many, RED can deliver what you want, in the cheapest manner. For others, buying a $300 handycam will get you what you want, there are an endless user requirements and it is impossible to cater to every single one with a single product. In my opinion though, RED has come the closest so far.

So, buy RED only for intended purposes: to shoot big time movies at 4K.
If you need 4K shoot, then you are working with big budget and price of accessories is not much concern to you.
If your budget is low, do not let the low cost of RED body fool you. You will be better off with one of them Sony / Panasonic at a relatively lower total cost.

All potential RED customers will make up their own mind about this, but for one, my budget is low (again, comparisons and generalizations are subjective) and I will be going with RED. For me it's a no brainer, and even though we will use our RED will shoot mostly feature films, it will be rented out to shoot pretty much every level of shoot that you can imagine, because of its versatility.

Cheers,
Seth.

 

[Häakon]

So, presuming I don't get everything right when I order my accessories - once I have the camera and I decide I need 5 more top handles and a dozen red arms, (exaggerating), what's the turnaround on getting additional accessories?

I'd hate to realize that I really want to mount a portable mixer somewhere on the camera and that if I'd only added that one piece, I could do it - and have to wait MONTHS to get it.

Hi Alexis,

I have personally had to order additional items here and there (additional CF cards, cables, hardware pieces) since purchasing my system and they have been extremely prompt in fulfilling orders. In most cases my orders shipped the same day I emailed them and they even provided overnight shipping. In one instance, I needed a part the same day and they offered me a courier service to drive it to my shooting location within hours. Of course I paid handily for this service, but the fact remains they made it happen.

When I had a problem with my camera body, they sent someone to our set with a loaner system the next day at no charge. In my experience, they have always gone way beyond the call of duty to make things right. It works best for them if you can order the majority of what you need right out the gate, but if you find that you need extra items at a later time they will assist you promptly. Don't lose any sleep over it.

 

[chuckt]

Hi Chuckt,

Please don't take this the wrong way (just trying to help) but most if not all of your assumptions here are very off base. Seth.

Thanks for setting record straight.
Rumor Dept:
Both Sony and Panasonic are coming out with 4K, 24p cameras, using 2/3" lenses because this is defacto standard in video cams and there is a huge installed base of 2/3" lenses out there. Sony and panasonic want to be backward compatible.
Panasonic will be the first one out the gate with HVX series body using P2 Cards and $30K price tag..
Sony is developing standards for cassette tapes and tape decks and compression standards and other things that go with a new format. price may be higher.

So far RED is the only one using 35 mm lenses.

 

[chuckt]

I'm not really sure what you mean by comparing these ? It seems like you are saying that a complete RED package is not bad value at 80K ? I would completely agree with you, but I think you'll find that a very usable RED package should will run you much less than this.

I have priced Panasonic HVX cameras. Minimal complete set up (Including computer and editing software) excluding light and grip, came out to be around $80K. A similar RED set up also came out to be the same.
Sony was more expensive.
Panasonic would be easy to use because it uses industry standard parts and processes and everybody knows how to use it.
RED is new and need Ninja at $500/day to operate it and nobody knows how it will all turn out.
I am trying to make a movie. The rental quotes for RED were all over $5500/day compared to rental quotes for Panasonic HVX 2000 at $1500/day.
(i only need 835 lines of Horizontal resolution for transfer to 35 mm film for theater projection. RED will give me enough resolution while HVX 2000 will give 800 lines of resolution, which I can live with.)

RED uses Hard drives which can fail due to various reasons and loose all my data at once while Panasonic data can be backed up to a tape deck.

I am not a technical expert in these matters. But I listen to tech guys.

 

[RCFisher]

Nice Rumors! 4k in a 2/3" chip is going to look like kaka and require huge post processing to get a decent picture. A larger sensor is better since the photosites are larger and collect more light which means faster ISO and lower noise. I think a 1920 x 1080 image in a 2/3" chip is about as far as one can go before diminishing returns start kicking in Big Time. Besides why buy a 4K camera that costs $300,000 US when you can spend a fraction of that on a Red which will produce equal or better images for less money. The only downside to Red is the heavy post production processing load, like working with film. If you need pictures right now then a Sony or Pany broadcast camera is the better choice since the workflow is more imediate requiring less post processing. Using a live image out of the monitor ports on a Red would be of a lesser quality since that would employ live debayering which would require huge overhead, I am not saying it can't be done just that it's not very cost effective and you loose the thing you bought the camera for, Extreme Quality images. Also would the in camera processor be able to handle that debayering at the quality level required? Most broadcast cameras have huge image tradeoffs that most people can't see but these days that is getting to be less and less due to fast processing. Just look at the color gamut for video and the pictures that the limited pallet makes, that video look. HD is better but still has to live inside a 20 year old spec and bandwidth limitations.

Just something to think about.

I want a Real Digital Cinema camera not a hacked broadcast camera.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I have priced Panasonic HVX cameras. Minimal complete set up (Including computer and editing software) excluding light and grip, came out to be around $80K. A similar RED set up also came out to be the same.
Sony was more expensive.
Panasonic would be easy to use because it uses industry standard parts and processes and everybody knows how to use it.
RED is new and need Ninja at $500/day to operate it and nobody knows how it will all turn out.
I am trying to make a movie. The rental quotes for RED were all over $5500/day compared to rental quotes for Panasonic HVX 2000 at $1500/day.
(i only need 835 lines of Horizontal resolution for transfer to 35 mm film for theater projection. RED will give me enough resolution while HVX 2000 will give 800 lines of resolution, which I can live with.)

RED uses Hard drives which can fail due to various reasons and loose all my data at once while Panasonic data can be backed up to a tape deck.

I am not a technical expert in these matters. But I listen to tech guys.

Wow, just...wow.

 

[RCFisher]

well Chuckt the hard drives are no less prone to loss than a P2 card which still will have to go to a drive, hopefully more than one to avoid loss of your camera original. I don't see a difference in shooting to a hard drive or shooting to a solid state card which will then be copied to a hard drive especially on a dramatic piece, if you have a lot of swinging the camera wildly then use the CF cards, plus the camera will weigh less.

Also if the HVX200 falls in your budget then go for that, if you can get the Red in the same budget that would be a better choice. Workflow issues are the same in all formats with pretty much the same problems. $100 million dollar movies have to invent a workflow that works for them since there is no tried and true workflow for digital cinematography yet, the medium is still way too young.

Film on the other hand is over 100 years old and workflows have been whacked out, evolved, over the years to deal with changing conditions. Hey I bet you wouldn't remember when hand held sound cameras changed the way movies were made, that was in the '60s & '70s when movies went from mostly studios to mostly location work. Today we take a lot of that for granted since we have all grown up with portable film and video. I have shot commercials and rock videos using Mitchell BNCR sound cameras, mainly because it fit within the budget and sounded like a good idea at the time. That turned out to not be such a great idea but we had to work within the limitations to deliver compelling content.

Do what you have to to make the film and hopefully it will have a good story, get distributed and maybe even make a profit so you can make another film. Which is the point after all.

 

[RCFisher]

Oh yea and I just want to mention that one of the best films I have seen in the last 30 years, in terms of impact, was el Mariachi. That film was shot for $7000 on a non sync sound 16mm camera. But when it was picked up by the distributor they put $100k into the sound which really made the movie. Just goes to show you that a good director with a vision can make a great movie for chump change, well it wasn't chump change to Robert Rodriguez since he sold his body & blood to make the movie. Check out his book "Rebel without a crew".

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I am trying to make a movie. The rental quotes for RED were all over $5500/day compared to rental quotes for Panasonic HVX 2000 at $1500/day.
(i only need 835 lines of Horizontal resolution for transfer to 35 mm film for theater projection. RED will give me enough resolution while HVX 2000 will give 800 lines of resolution, which I can live with.)

Are you talking about the HVX-200 (small, prosumer camera) or the HPX-2000 (P2, broadcast style camera)? Because if someone is quoting you $1500 a day for a HVX-200, you are getting ripped off (unless it includes a very talented DP/Operator.) $1500 a day just for a HPX actually seems overpriced since you can rent a Vari-cam around here for $1,000-$1,2000 a day (without operator.)

I don't know how you would spend $80,000 on a RED & computer unless you are buying a new prime lens set. According to my RED budget, a RED, 18-50 lens, body package, 4 batts + charger, RED drive,good follow focus & mattebox, ND and Polo filters, Quad MacPro, 8 GB RAM, 3 TB RAID 5, & LTO-3 Tape drive is only running around $50,000. Add some cases and your up maybe another $2,000. Heck, add an extra $3,000 and your still only upto $55,000. Add good sticks and a head $6,000=$61,000. I think that is very good considering the quality you can produce.

I really don't understand where your numbers are coming from (unless you are pricing list price on everything.)

Matthew

If you're serious about printing to film, the RED is going to produce much better results. Easier to use cinema style lenses, shallower DOF, and 2x more resolution.