Dalsa Origin Footage

[A51Films]

I've seen all this footage from RED, but I've yet to see any dalsa footage anywhere. I'm curious as to wether anyone has any 4k dalsa origin footage that I could look at?

 

[T. Glen Phelps]

Have seen footage at trade shows but none on the web. They do have 4K frame grabs on their website at: http://www.dalsa.com/dc/4K_gallery/4K_gallery.asp

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I have seen several clips and even a short of the Dalsa Origin, all in 4k.

The most impressive one was at Cinegear, the colors and rez was impressive.

I can't make a direct comparison with the RED footage for several reasons,

A) Dalsa footage was projected on a 12' screen from about 16' away, so obviously the image is crispier then if projected from 50' away on a 30' screen.

B) The subjects filmed on each camera were not the same.

I do like the Dalsa images, but nnot any better then I like RED's.

It will be hard for you to see 4k footage of the Dalsa as they obviously do nnot have an open policy like RED and do have much consideration and wary about people making wrong assumption by wiewing the images in less then ideal sources.

This arte not statement coming from none of the cameras manufacturers above but my amble opinion of the two after having seen footage from both.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[Charles Angus]

Looks nice for web footage - not saying much, but well shot and graded; even if the outdoor space-ey stuff looks a little "lit".

 

[Illya Friedman]

I have seen several clips and even a short of the Dalsa Origin, all in 4k.

The most impressive one was at Cinegear, the colors and rez was impressive.

Thanks. And we were only playing back HD! That set-up was far from ideal, with a lower-end projector and screen combination. But at least the material was totally silent, had no quick cuts, and no-color correction so you could have some understanding of exactly what was going on.

It will be hard for you to see 4k footage of the Dalsa as they obviously do nnot have an open policy like RED and do have much consideration and wary about people making wrong assumption by wiewing the images in less then ideal sources.

Ketch, with all due respect, you're expressing an opinion. The reality is far different.

Just because we don't post much footage on-line, doesn't mean DALSA isn't open to showing off our stuff. Besides the usual trade events, I personally host screenings in our theater several times a week. I also regularly send material or arrange screenings for clients around the world. Unfortunately, many of those screenings are not ideal situations.

It's not hyperbole when I say that the Origin II makes the best images of any digital cinema camera. It has more dynamic range and more apparent resolution than any other digital cinema camera in the known universe. Believe me- we want people to see it!

What's even more helpful than seeing demo footage, is for DPs to shoot their own test- either alone or against other known formats to have a direct comparison. A professional DP will test exactly what they want, and when viewing the results they know the exact shooting conditions. DALSA has the most liberal testing policy of any manufacturer that I'm aware of, which keeps me very busy, and that's a good thing.

On a side but related note, I've overheard people (at tradeshows in particular) raving or proclaiming "best" after seeing one flashy showreel or another with slick/stylized color-corrected images, special fx, quick cuts, and a very loud soundtrack, all with zero point of reference. That kind of material definitely has its place, and I think it's useful to generate general interest. Unfortunately, there's a level of person out there who doesn't realize that all that cutting and VFX also helps disguise actual camera performance, and it may even mask genuine acquisition problems that had to be painstakingly corrected in post for that flashy reel. The reel might be entertaining, but you don't always learn much. I happened to meet one of those young 'proclaimers' right after one of those flashy screenings last week. He was talking like he knew it all, right in front of an extremely knowledgeable (although rather quiet) DP who silently smirked. He never realized how much he embarrassed himself.


I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Illya, the comments and post I do are my opinions on each subject of which I write, at times they have hard facts other times they have results of personal research, as this is the case for Dalsa, it was my personal experience that Dalsa footage was very hard to come by.

I in deed was impressed by the quality of the images I view at Cinegear, and sure I also noticed that the projector was not what I would have expected to see going in to the tent were the screening toucked place, also I made an observation to a fellow Cinegear attendee that I had a better screen at home then the one were the images of the Dalsa II were projected.

Nonetheless I was very pleased with the images.

I'm surely not the quite type, but I do not pretend to know it all (like the guy you speak of) on the contrary most of the times I tend to tell people that I know a bit about everything and nothing about anything.

But I do love Cinematography as well as Photography and I'm most passionate about the entire process, I try to stay away from the extremely technical matters and concentrate more on the way I can get the results I want.

I write my own materials and as a Director I also play with light on my own way, as I do in photography to get the fill and image final output that tells my stories the way I wanted them to be told.

The Dalsa images I view impressed me for the Organic fill that I found on them, the colors were separated nicely leaving the backgrounds as vivid as the foreground, yet isolating the subjects in a 3D look that give a pleasing experience to the eye, I said that I'm a passionate storyteller and colors, separation of colors, depth of field accentuated by not only focus but resolution of the images, are all important to the scene to make the viewer pay attention to what matters, and it was nice to be transported by does images.

When I say that I did not like the Dalsa images any better then RED's, I also said that a direct comparison could not be made unless the same scene was shot with both cameras at the same time, this means same lighting set up, same lenses etc.

Obviously at the end of the day what counts the most to each Film project is its workflow chosen for the final look and all the aspects of Cinematography, first of all "Budget". It is budget that has kept many (like my self) away form their "Dreams" of telling a story, and if you have done nothing before, it is extremely hard for you to do anything at all, what a close circle that is, Jim and its RED team have broken that barrier for many as it will be for me as soon as I take delivery of my cameras and be able to start shooting my projects getting the quality I want with out the unreachable cost of renting a Dalsa package, as today, I would only considered the Dalsa if RED was not here.

But then again who knows when I would have got a chance to shoot with a budjet such as that required by a DAlsa package, I'm a Writer/Director and an incredibly passionate Storyteller, but again as I have done nothing in this Industry yet would have been almost impossible for me to make my dreams come to reality, and this is were RED steps in giving a tool of unprecedented criterias for a very affordable price.

Given the fantastic image quality, the cost of production, the incredible ease of Post, the size, and most importantly, the way Mr. Jannard has not only provided the perfect tool for many of us, but the way He has and is going about it, that made my decision a no brainer, RED is the only way to go for me, I didn't mentioned the absurd low price of the camera as Dalsa it is not for sale so it would be an unfare comparisson, but rental of a RED package would nonetheless still be way below that of the Dalsa.

At last when I compare products such as cameras, lenses and any gear that provides different quality, I do not only look and research to find the absolute best, I look to find what pleases me and is suited for my projects.

My experience at this time may not say much about me but I know what I see and what I want, and it is based on this values that I make my choices and give my amble opinions.

At last I know that Dalsa as well as many other cameras will continue to find their market and users as will RED, and I for one will not compare film vs. digital or Dalsa vs. RED, I will only review them to find which one is best suited for me as I have already done.

I hope not of my opinions have offended you, your company or your products, I speak my mind with no reflections, I'm Strong opinionated Passionate Italian, but I never mean to fail to respect any one, and as far as shooting with Dalsa never ssay never, but RED right now looks very good to me and can't count the days till I get them and start shooting with it.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[Stacey Spears]

The Trident short was part of the JVC 4k demo at CEDIA this past September in Denver.

The most detailed portion were the close-ups of David Carradine.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Question for Ilya,

I've only seen screen grabs from the Dalsa, but it appears to be a serious tool capable of creating amazing images. I agree with Signore Rossi on everything he said though, RED has opened an immense array of possibilities for many of us that will remain unattainable with Dalsa or even the Sony HD cams. Like Ketch, I am a lover of photography in its many forms and spend a lot of my time shooting video and still cameras, playing with light, experimenting with the possibilities that each particular camera gives me. In that sense, a RED would be a camera that I could shoot with EVERY day, without having to rent or mortgage my house to buy it, allowing me to improve my craft exponentially, much as I've done with my SLR's, DSLR's, DV and HDV cameras. That will be a deciding factor for many of us, even those not financially limited, because after all, you can't just rent a DALSA everyday...

However, accepting that the DALSA produces the best digital images nowadays, is there a way you think you could produce a 4 K camera of the same dimensions and comparable price to RED, or the DALSA magic can only be achieved through large and expensive components? Could there ever be a DALSA "Junior"?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Could there ever be a DALSA "Junior"?

Isn't that a little of what the RED is, the smaller and cheaper 4K camera?

I think the Dalsa gets some of its particular quality from capturing & recording 16-bit uncompressed 4K Bayer data, which is perhaps unwieldly and impractical for the independent filmmaking crowd that that the RED is aimed at. There is a practical reason for the specs (12-bit wavelet compressed 4K Bayer data) that the RED team are working with.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I was under the impression it was 14bit with two bits of padding?

Graeme

 

[Illya Friedman]

I hope not of my opinions have offended you, your company or your products,

No of course not.

When I get calls, overhear (or read) rumors/mis-information, if I'm able to offer correct information, I do. I wasn't offended.

--To clarify on the other part of my post, this is related to the same topic in a general way, but was directed solely at the person I met at the screening last week.

My sensibilities do get somewhat offended by the proclamations of "armchair experts", including bloggers and the like. Professionals will also occasionally read blogs, message boards, and the occasional (sketchy) article printed in a magazine.

While there'll always be a portion of the audience who don't know better, and take everything written (or said) at face value, the wonderful thing about this business is that there's an awful lot of VERY smart people who do know what they know from hard-earned life lessons. Armed with that valuable experience, they know who to stay away from when the armchair set climb aboard a magical flaming chariot of hyperbole.

There are some very good bloggers and technical writers as well, and my comments are of course not directed at everyone.

Like a few others, DALSA has adopted a marketing and roll out plan valuing substance over style. So obviously, you won't see as much from us compared to companies reliant on a persistent hype machine. While it would be nice to sometimes have more style, it'll be way, way more important (especially in the long run) to have the substance. For that I'm thankful.

I.


Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Poi Boy]

No of course not.

When I get calls, overhear (or read) rumors/mis-information, if I'm able to offer correct information, I do. I wasn't offended.

--To clarify on the other part of my post, this is related to the same topic in a general way, but was directed solely at the person I met at the screening last week.

My sensibilities do get somewhat offended by the proclamations of "armchair experts", including bloggers and the like. Professionals will also occasionally read blogs, message boards, and the occasional (sketchy) article printed in a magazine.

While there'll always be a portion of the audience who don't know better, and take everything written (or said) at face value, the wonderful thing about this business is that there's an awful lot of VERY smart people who do know what they know from hard-earned life lessons. Armed with that valuable experience, they know who to stay away from when the armchair set climb aboard a magical flaming chariot of hyperbole.

There are some very good bloggers and technical writers as well, and my comments are of course not directed at everyone.

Like a few others, DALSA has adopted a marketing and roll out plan valuing substance over style. So obviously, you won't see as much from us as companies reliant on a persistent hype machine. While it would be nice to sometimes have more style, it'll be way, way more important (especially in the long run) to have the substance. For that I'm thankful.

I.


Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

Sounds to me like you are a bit offended....competition is a very very good thing and red is changing the landscape not because of flash but because of substance, You have to love entrepreneurship.
Aloha
-A

 

[MalcomXB]

illya you nailed it dead right and struck a nerve in poi. i've been lurking for months and poi is big red cheerleader.

mahalo to my bra poi

X

 

[Poi Boy]

illya you nailed it dead right and struck a nerve in poi. i've been lurking for months and poi is big red cheerleader.

mahalo to my bra poi

X

Hell ya, I'm a big red cheerleader....actually not anymore. Now I'm a thrilled and much envied Red owner making beautiful images !
Aloha
-A

 

[Ketch Rossi]

No of course not.

When I get calls, overhear (or read) rumors/mis-information, if I'm able to offer correct information, I do. I wasn't offended.

--To clarify on the other part of my post, this is related to the same topic in a general way, but was directed solely at the person I met at the screening last week.

My sensibilities do get somewhat offended by the proclamations of "armchair experts", including bloggers and the like. Professionals will also occasionally read blogs, message boards, and the occasional (sketchy) article printed in a magazine.

While there'll always be a portion of the audience who don't know better, and take everything written (or said) at face value, the wonderful thing about this business is that there's an awful lot of VERY smart people who do know what they know from hard-earned life lessons. Armed with that valuable experience, they know who to stay away from when the armchair set climb aboard a magical flaming chariot of hyperbole.

There are some very good bloggers and technical writers as well, and my comments are of course not directed at everyone.

Like a few others, DALSA has adopted a marketing and roll out plan valuing substance over style. So obviously, you won't see as much from us compared to companies reliant on a persistent hype machine. While it would be nice to sometimes have more style, it'll be way, way more important (especially in the long run) to have the substance. For that I'm thankful.

I.


Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc

Okay Illya, I just wanted to make sure as I know I have a big mouth and my brain has difficulties in keeping it from speaking out loud at any chance available, but I do so never with the intention to offend or put down any one or any other products, I like to say my opinions on what interest me and make my choices wile informing others of my discoveries and likes only in the intent to educate those that do not yet know about it or like to know more.

Again I not only believe that Dalsa is a great camera, I know it is and recently (well not so recently, about last year) as I was speaking to a very Highly respected personality in the Digital Media Association of Cinema (please don't quote me on the exact name of the association) he was in deed trying to stir me away from buying the RED cameras not only because the RED camera then had not yet provided with any prove of image quality but because He believed the Film industry is a Rental one and I should not buy any gear, especially not a gear that was not even in the market and a proven good product as RED was back wen this conversation tucked place.

What He believed was on Film and not on Digital but if I was to go Digital then I should go with Dalsa as it was the only digital camera capable of using the industry standard and best 35mm glass and produced incredible images.

Well I agree with him on some points and started the research about Dalsa and I was very pleased with what I was seeing.

If I could have seen in the future and know then that I would not have gotten my RED cameras till now possibly and hopefully next month (2 years from then) possibly I would have not purchased my home and my new SUV and spend as much as I did on my home, and just put the money on a rental deal with the Dalsa camera for producing my first film.

In truth I'm very happy now that I did what I did and I'm still and more now then ever before (especially after being part of LART) a true supporter of RED Jim and its Team, looking truly forward for the delivery of my cameras and start filming and sharing with the world my visions via the Incredible and Unmatched "Easy Workflow, Image Quality, Possible Configurations & Lenses Adaptability, Portability, Way of Sharing High Quality Images in Super Small files Thanks to REDCINE and Costumer Support" PACKAGE!

But I must also list the fact that the RED it is not just a camera purchase for me anymore, my involvement in this Truly Remarkable Revolution has given me also many new friends and I found in REDUSER a unique community of people of which I already know many in person and hope to continue to meet.

So this is not anymore just about a camera, it is about peoples, their dreams, their hopes and finding some one to talk to and share their ideas, dreams and goals with, all in one community put together by one person, his dream and his quest to put together a "Dalsa" for every one.

This are my opinions and filings by mentioning both RED & Dalsa in my comments I like to repeat my self saying that I wish not to represent one or the other but express my self freely with no intention to offend one or the other.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Like a few others, DALSA has adopted a marketing and roll out plan valuing substance over style. So obviously, you won't see as much from us compared to companies reliant on a persistent hype machine. While it would be nice to sometimes have more style, it'll be way, way more important (especially in the long run) to have the substance. For that I'm thankful.

Illya,

I respect that point of view and share it as a personal motto in my life. However, I hope you're not referring to RED when quoting the companies reliant on the hype machine. It appears clear to me their focus has always been on excellence of design, quality of image (the very atributes you refer to as substance?) coupled with a welcome approach towards ease of use, logic and affordability. Whether the latter ones are or not a part of your philosophy, that's your prerrogative, but I'll ask you this:

How many features have been shot on Dalsa? Films that I can go and see in the theather so that I can ascertain the Dalsa quality. As a practical newborn, RED has already managed to gain followers from the ranks of top professionals, the very group that could and should benefit from the amazing tool the Dalsa seems to be. If your camera is all that you, and others, say it is, then it is a true shame that, substance over hype aside, not a lot more professionals pick it as their tool of choice to bring their visions to the audiences. Why is this you think?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Dalsa does shoot pretty pictures. Shame about the price and workflow.

We provided 4K cameras, support and post for two features.

For that, I am thankful.

Lots going on over at DalsaUser.net

 

[Illya Friedman]

Why is this you think?

This a common question. I meet a lot of people who have only heard part of the story, or only know bits and pieces. Sometime it’s extremely old or just plain wrong information. Some of the stories I hear are perpetuated on-line. Sometimes it comes from our competitors and sometimes from my favorite- the armchair experts. As I’ve said numerous times before, when people draw my attention to wrong information it I do my best to correct the understanding.

2007 is year 0 for the Origin II camera, the camera is extremely new. It just "officially" became available for rental early in the year. The launch/roll out of the 4K camera systems has been very controlled, which is a beautiful thing. For what we're doing, and what our clients want (performance, security, reliability, predictability, support etc) it's the best approach.

Here’s the status of the camera as it’s been now for a short while- in a nutshell. The Origin has undergone an extremely rigorous burn-in period. It's been tested in a variety of conditions, and in countries around the world. It has a proven and simple workflow which is almost exactly the same as performing a 35mm Digital Intermediate. It's priced about the same as film or shooting uncompressed HD. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but it’s being used and considered by a variety of people, including some of most respected professionals in their field.

Here's the backstory for the uninitiated. When the Origin camera was first announced in 2003 it was a big deal. There was a lot of press. Unfortunately there was still much to work out. In fact everything needed some refinement. But there was so much press back in those early days I still meet people who quote back information that was outdated only months after that NAB!

The list of everything we've done since then is too numerous for this post. DALSA has refined, improved and upgraded the performance, people, products, workflow, the Los Angeles facility and the R&D division a number of times. We've also been fortunate to gain the support of several of the most respected 3rd parties and vendors to compliment our equipment and workflow.

For our division, camera performance is a big part, but still only part of the equation of what we’re doing. Since we are following a rental business model, rentals revolves around service and support- as well as equipment. In this business you can't just hand someone a piece of gear and say "there you go", although there are plenty of fly-by-night shops (I'm being kind here) that do just that. You need to do things differently with motion picture & television equipment rentals. It's not the same as selling Joe Blow a widget. Most reputable producers and DP understand that, and that's why only a handful of rental houses regularly cater to those clients.

2007 has been a great year for our small Digital Cinema division. There are a handful of feature films that have used the camera in part, and one called, "Tempting Hyenas" that used the Origin camera for the entire production. We have done several other projects including commercials and music videos, which you may have seen already; either on TV, or in a theater preceding a feature film.

Other than Tempting Hyenas, I don't believe any of the other features are done with post yet. There are guidelines especially when dealing with studios for what/when vendors can say (and can't say) about their business dealings because the studio wants to protect the value of their logos, brands, franchises etc. DALSA is involved with a number of projects, in various states of production that I'm not allowed to discuss title, cast, crew..etc in a public forum. This is not unique. When I am, I will. While it’s a practice that’s been know to happen with others companies, the Digital Cinema division does not pay our clients for promotional consideration.

Dalsa does shoot pretty pictures. Shame about the price and workflow.

We provided 4K cameras, support and post for two features.

For that, I am thankful.

Lots going on over at DalsaUser.net

It looks to be an anonymous registrar. I think someone is cyber-squatting hoping to sell the domain to DALSA.

You’re saying that having a flexible and robust D.I. workflow that allows people to cut their entire project in FCP is a shame? Interesting, that tells me a lot.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc