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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Nikon vs Canon - Birger Lens Mount

I've ordered the Nikon mount, BUT.

It bothers me that most of Nikon's best primes will not have focius control on the Birger mount. Like the 85mm F1.4 AF-D and the 105mm F2 DC AF. If Birger could make this work, the mount would be about twice as useful. (I like to work with primes.)

I guess the Birger mount works the same as the Nikon D40(x) DSLR, which can autofocus only on AF-S lenses. (No AF motor in the camera body.)

Sigma have their Nikon mount AF-S equivalent lenses, with the HSM designation (Hyper Sonic Motor). These will autofocus on the D40(x), so I guess there's a good chance they will work with the Birger also? This would open up a few possibilities, although I would much prefer to use Nikon.

The Sigma 30mm F1.4 HSM seems like a good buy for a low light normal lens, when you need focus control. Sigma 14mm F2.8 has HSM, while Nikon 14mm does not have AF-S. Also I own the 150mm macro with HSM, which is very nice.
 
Well most if not all lenses have some slop in the iris and/or control ring. This is not such a concern with still images but to be spot on (or at least as accuretly as the aperture scale is calibrated) you should open the iris up all the way and then stop down to your given stop. This takes the lash/slop out of the mechanisim. This is standard operating procedure in the motion picture world. It could be these still camera lenses with electrically controlled apertures don't have this problem. I don't know.
 
Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?
 
Nathan Troutman said:
Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?
Click to expand...

Nathan you really want the L series.:matrix:
 
Primes, zooms, and dust on the sensor.

Primes, zooms, and dust on the sensor.

Nathan Troutman said:
Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?
Click to expand...

I was at Arri here in Ft. Lauderdale and we were talking about the RED, D20, etc. and there engineer brought up that he thought one of the biggest adjustments in thinking that is going to happen is how critical an issue dust on the sensor is. It seems that using the zooms as variable primes may help with this aspect of digital shooting.
 
AquaVid,

Dust on the sensor isn't much of a concern to those of use that have spent time with film cameras. We check the gate every time we get a good shot in the can. It wasn't much different with HD where I would hit the "return" switch after each good take to make sure there was no error.
 
What about the feathering of the actual focus pull on this mount? Is it jerky like the auto focus? Can it be fast? Can it be slow? Can you do what you do with a speed crank? Great idea I'm just concerned how it will perform in a professional enviroment.
 
Hollywood, I'm thinking the same thing. My thinking is that it more than likely will not work so well for pulls. The USM motors in Canon lenses are VERY different from servos used in most cine style systems. I don't think they will have the resolution nor the fluidity necessary for pretty pulls. I of course could be proven very wrong.
 
You can either pull focus by turning a rail mounted knob, or the knob and slider on the remote control- so speed crank shouldn´t be a problem. Also I believe the focus movement should be quite smooth since the AF lenses have between 2000 and 4500 discrete focus steps, which should deliver a very smooth pull.
I don´t know about the knobs as such though... Hope they have a good feel to them.
 
ooops, one question opposite answers... lets hope someone gets their hands on a unit some time soon.
 
Mike Prevette said:
The USM motors in Canon lenses are VERY different from servos used in most cine style systems. I don't think they will have the resolution nor the fluidity necessary for pretty pulls. I of course could be proven very wrong.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike. What is known is that each of the various Canon lenses have differing numbers of steps, ranging from the high hundreds to the several thousands depending on the lens. These steps are not distributed in a linear fashion, but fall with greater density in the closer focus ranges where they are needed. The Birger will re-map these steps to a fixed high number of linear steps (4000 ish) on their controller knob using the full rotation of the knob for each lens.

What is not known (until L.A.R.T) are great number of important details, my personal list includes;

1.) What is the process used for mapping a lens? Does it happen each time the mount is powered up?

2.) What is the tactile response of the knob? How quick and responsive to commands will it work? Will slow focus creeps be very smooth or exhibit stutter?

3.) How do you control iris? I _think_ you simply throw a switch on the knob to change from focus to iris.

4.) On power up, does both focus and iris return to the last settings?

5.) How rugged and dependable is it? Will it work when in an active physical enviroment with lots of camera ballistics?

And on and on.

Personally, I really hope it's all that and a bag of chips. We'll see...
 
This might be little out of this topic, but thought of asking in Birger discussion.
Can someone explain us the difference between these two methods.
1)Red Nikon Mount($500) + RedRcok FF($645)+RedRock Remote($500) = $1645, cannot work for CPU lenses
2)Birger Nikon Mount + remote(currently Free)=$1450, but what I understand if we need to use Manual Lens, we need to buy another FF, which another is$645 or so.

What I want understand is, why many people leaning towards Birger solution?
 
visakk said:
What I want understand is, why many people leaning towards Birger solution?
Click to expand...

The main reason (for me) is the potential of really good electronic focus pulling, both wired and remote/wireless. I say "potential", because that is what it is until someone reveals the nuts and bolts of a working unit and has run it through its paces and reports in.

I'm also excited about the Canon EF and EF-S zooms and feel they'll be perfect for my personal lens set. For instance, the 10-22mm is a heckva lens and will also be perfect for any occasional 2K windowed work.
 
Nils J. Nesse said:
The always controversial Ken Rockwell has an article on L-series lenses worth considering.
Click to expand...

Good read, but how can you compare 14mm to 50mm...
Agreed that you should not ignore other lenses, but I have used both in production (35mm adapter) and wouldn't invest in a none L lens. L last forever when used regularly. Others fall apart in heavy use.
Cheers
 
The reverse focussing of the Nikkor lenses compared to cine lenses is an interesting point to consider. However I think it's fairly safe to assume that if you can't afford a reversible follow focus to use with your 35mm still lenses, you probably can't afford an AC with the experience on cine lenses to be put off by that fact.
 
BillG said:
I think the difference here is that traditional follow focus units rely on a mechanical linkage: gears on the FF mesh with gears on the surface of the lens.

Yes, Nikkor optics--DSLR or not--may very well rely on focusing the lens barrel in the reverse direction to cinema and Canon lenses.

But the Birger Mount relies on an ELECTRONIC interface, so I think it may be a trivial difference to drive the internal gearing with the electronics one way or the other by merely reversing the polarity with which the internal lens motor drives the gearing.
Click to expand...

Once again, at the risk of quoting myself from just a few pages back in this thread, I think what you're missing here is that the Birger Mount is electronic, not mechanical, so a higher-cost, reversible-gearing mechanism shouldn't be necessary, at least not with AF-S lenses.

Of course, this will not be the case with CURRENT Nikkor primes or with the manual RED Nikon Mount, but the current line-up of Nikkor AF-S zooms covers the entire range of almost anyone's conceivable focal length needs.

I also have a feeling that, with the demise of the DX format and the emergence of the FX format, in time, there will be an AF-S refresh of Nikkor primes. After that, you will not only have a great selection of the most up-to-date zooms but primes as well.
 
BillG said:
in time, there will be an AF-S refresh of Nikkor primes. After that, you will not only have a great selection of the most up-to-date zooms but primes as well.
Click to expand...

I really hope so because right now that's the big advantage Canon has with their L-series primes (even if they do cost a thousand dollars a pop.)

I thought visakk brought up an interesting point. You could get a good follow focus set-up both manual and remotely by going the Redrock way he mentioned.

1)Red Nikon Mount($500) + RedRcok FF($645)+RedRock Remote($500) = $1645.

If I had to counter I'd say that: 1st the Redrock remote is not available yet so we don't know what if any issues it may have or what it's performance might be like (then again until this weekend we don't know much about Birger either.) 2nd you still have to attach gears to your lenses and deal with lens travel and physically attaching the follow focus to the lens. This may be a plus to some who might prefer to have the old tried and true manual feel for all lenses. 3rd if you buy or have a manual follow focus like Redrock's you can still use the Birger mount with manual Nikon lenses just like you would with the Red Nikon mount. So add in $645 to the $1450 and at $2095 you have just as many options as the all Red and Redrock approach.

I think the excitement about Birger is the hope that this "hands-off" all electronic approach to focusing might prove to be a step forward for pulling focus in a better way. The hope being that the servo motors will be smoother and better than anyone's hand could ever be.

I'm also hoping for all of that and a bag of chips as well!
 
Quoting the Birger Engineering reservation order form:
"Deposit is fully refundable until seven days before shipment is scheduled. Requests for order cancellation must be received by email or FAX."

Seems to me that allowing Birger to hold a $290 refundable deposit in exchange for the promise of a free blue tooth unit priced at $600 is a good deal--and you can bail out up to one week before delivery, no questions asked.

This deal may not be quite as good of an insurance policy for those purchasing the Canon system, which is due to ship within weeks, since there will be less time for flaws in the system to come to light before scheduled shipment. But, if you're considering the Nikon, Sigma or fourthirds mount, there should be plenty of time to hear how the Canon mount is working from LART testing and those taking shipment in December.

I placed my order for a Birger Nikon Mount on November 23rd; it was among the first orders received by Birger. Erik said in a phone call today that I should be able to expect shipment by early February.
 
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