Visualisation possible workflows

[Ed van der Kruijssen]

We made two schemes with possible workflows one based on uncompressed DPX HD/2K/4K and one based on Pro Res 4:2:2

 

[Mike Prevette]

For cheaper: just cut the offline QT files> EDL > RedCine (coming soon)>dpx>After Effects

 

[Álex Montoya]

Yeah? Has the RED team stated that REDCINE is going to be able to ingest EDL's?

 

[Elizabeth]

WOW! Ask and you shall receive instant gratification.

I just finished my long post in the "iMac 24" Case" thread and then returned to the New Post page only to see the brand new thread "Visualization possible workflows".

This will help a lot! Thanks to "Dip" for reading my mind even before I could finish typing my thoughts.

Cheers! e.

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

For cheaper: just cut the offline QT files> EDL > RedCine (coming soon)>dpx>After Effects

This is pretty much my dream workflow. Is it actually possible? Will the EDLs work in Redcine?

I certainly don't like the idea of "making selection of shots via Redcine". I want every shot to be available - some of the best coverage comes from abandoned takes, so I'll need everything we shoot to be sitting there in FCP. Manually putting everything through Redcine would be way too laborious. So, this offline-Redcine-dpx workflow looks very good to me.

 

[Elizabeth]

If I may, I am going to jump threads with my question and double post because the title of this thread is more appropriate to the topic. The thread "Case for iMac 24" can be referenced to see where I'm came from.

The terrific visualization that "Dip" put together here (thanks) is a great start. Can we talk about more about technical specs and brand and real world applications?

On the miraculous chance that I could indeed be able to aim my aspirations and acquisitions toward the land of RED, I am currently trying to sort out the budget requirements and possible system configurations scenarios for an effective post production system.

I would greatly appreciate hearing from those active RED ONE users as to what they are editing on and how it is working for them.

Red.com has this to say about post work flow ...
* Shoot 4K REDCODE RAW @27MB/sec.
* Load footage into REDCINE Do 1st light correction.
* Export to any number of output options.
* REDCINE is supported on Intel Mac and Windows XP only.

Hmmm ... ah yes … there’s also the release stating the REDCODE Raw codec is now enabled for Final Cut. However they only mention working with 1K and 2K movie files. What about 4K?

What system configuration would need to be put together to work with 4K files? Is it reasonable to think that a lowly freelance editor could even touch a 4K capable system?

Kosmos3d, so far, you have endorsed the big Mac Pro, the MacBook Pro and the iMac 24 ... (I know each has their specific application) but considering I will only be able to get one system, what would you recommend as the dream post workflow configuration ... from the file download from RED ONE to final delivery to client? Think indie and corporate rather than epic blockbuster and big budget.

Does anybody else feel inspired to outline their working RED ONE editing system? I don’t need any cost information just a simple equipment and software outline would be great.

Please and thank you in advance! e.

(I hope I am not asking for too much):help:

 

[Ed van der Kruijssen]

This is pretty much my dream workflow. Is it actually possible? Will the EDLs work in Redcine?

There will be an option to make a sort of pull list in the near future. I haven't heard anything about conforming EDL's within REDCINE.

Another problem right now is that there is no source Time Code relation with the Quick Time movies RED is generating yet. So it makes no sense to make a off line based on the quicktime movies. Because there is no relation with the source Time Codes generated in the 3RD files.

Ed

 

[Michael Stanmore]

So if I'm to understand correctly, I can't make my El Mariachi in 4k with my few thousand dollar MacPro setup with FCS2... I'd need to offline in that and then conform in some crazy application afterwards... Is that right and not something I can get around? What is the workflow for after effects?

 

[Ed van der Kruijssen]

So if I'm to understand correctly, I can't make my El Mariachi in 4k with my few thousand dollar MacPro setup with FCS2... I'd need to offline in that and then conform in some crazy application afterwards... Is that right and not something I can get around? What is the workflow for after effects?

We're just showing two possible workflows that we tried and know of that it is functioning. The "crazy application" known by the name Quantel IQ/Pablo is one of the few systems capable to finish and grade 4K/2K in realtime. For instance the REd film "crossing the line" has been edited and graded on a Quantel IQ/Pablo. I guess you can finish and grade in 4K on a FCP (for instance as uncompressed 4K Tiff) but process times will be that long that I don't think it's a realistic option. I doubt that it is possible to view your clips uncompressed in 4K in real time on a FCP.

Ed

 

[Michael Stanmore]

Thanks dip.

I don't mind if I have to finish NOT in realtime though...

If I can cut my movie using the 1k or 2k proxies (or whatever I happen to use)... in FCP

then use the EDL and piece the film back together in a program like colour? Would that work? It wouldn't be in Real Time, but I could possibly work out my colour grade using downrezzed files... and apply the grade to the full 4K files...

I'm just trying to work out the full Mariachi... Even if it means a week of rendering... or even a month! If it saves thousands of dollars in onlining costs.

It would be a tedious workflow and obviously avoided by anyone who could afford to do it a better way... But still... Red is opening doors to some of us who have no right to dream such dreams... Would be a shame if we have to finish to 720P or 1440X1080 DVCProHD just because we can't figure a workaround to get our edit back to the glorious 4K we started with.

 

[Michael Stanmore]

What am I saying!!! The full Mariachi is to finish to whatever you've got, and if the finished product is any good, let someone with money pay for the high quality version!

 

[Ed van der Kruijssen]

Would be a shame if we have to finish to 720P or 1440X1080 DVCProHD just because we can't figure a workaround to get our edit back to the glorious 4K we started with.

Perhaps you can test it at your own FCP but I think "gluetools" can be helpfull for doing a 4K 4:4:4 job online on a Final Cut Pro system.
for more info www.gluetools.com

 

[dino g]

stay tiger (no leopard just yet...crashes prores)
load new fcp patch 6.02
load new redcode codec
open an prores 422 (HQ) 1080p24 project from sequence presets
set playback video quality to medium
set unlimited rt

drop 4k file as the first piece of content into your timeline (e.g. drop a 2k proxy into your timeline first, as opposed to a 1k proxy from a 2k shot)

you will get an error message...

"attention this clip does not match this sequence's settings or any of your sequence presets. for best ......change sequence settings to match the clip settings?" Answer <YES>

then you can drop anything 2k, 1k high fps into the timeline and it will autoconform and playback without rendering.

now if you do crazy effects or lots of extra stuff, you will have to render it out.

this is the newest most efficient workflow in FCP that will avoid you having to render to have playback right away.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Thanks dip.

I don't mind if I have to finish NOT in realtime though...

If I can cut my movie using the 1k or 2k proxies (or whatever I happen to use)... in FCP

then use the EDL and piece the film back together in a program like colour? Would that work? It wouldn't be in Real Time, but I could possibly work out my colour grade using downrezzed files... and apply the grade to the full 4K files...

I'm just trying to work out the full Mariachi... Even if it means a week of rendering... or even a month! If it saves thousands of dollars in onlining costs.

It would be a tedious workflow and obviously avoided by anyone who could afford to do it a better way... But still... Red is opening doors to some of us who have no right to dream such dreams... Would be a shame if we have to finish to 720P or 1440X1080 DVCProHD just because we can't figure a workaround to get our edit back to the glorious 4K we started with.

Bravo.

I hope you're right, and there is a viable manner to finish without having to make a trip to one of the post houses on the west side. Been there done that. I've gotten HUGE deals, but it's still hard to be creative when you're hemorrhaging loot. And while I like the people at the Syndicate and Riot...I'd rather not afford that if I don't have to. Mind you, every situation is different and some require the expertise of the colorists there, but it'd be nice to have this kind of freedom when necessary.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

stay tiger (no leopard just yet...crashes prores)
load new fcp patch 6.02
load new redcode codec
open an hdv-prores 422 1080p24 project from easy setup
set playback video quality to medium
set unlimited rt

drop 4k file as the first piece of content into your timeline (e.g. drop a 2k proxy into your timeline first, as opposed to a 1k proxy from a 2k shot)

then you can drop anything 2k, 1k high fps into the timeline and it will autoconform and playback without rendering.

now if you do crazy effects or lots of extra stuff, you will have to render it out.

this is the newest most efficient workflow in FCP that will avoid you having to render to have playback right away.

Not sure I understand why you write drop a 4K file onto the timeline as the first piece of content. How does that help avoid dropped frames and provide for seamless playback? I'm sorry if that's an ignorant question, but I really don't get it.

 

[dino g]

what provides the seamless playback is the combination of the new codec, the original timeline settings, the new fcp patch, and the first piece of content brought to establish the "real" project properties.

redcode is only a playback format, you can not write to redcode right now. so if you want to mix and match 2k and 4k clips without having to manual resize and render, this is the combination that works.

it allows the content (4k, 2k varispeed) to be autoconformed to playback in real time. you must have a system with a bit of muscle, but it works great.

i did not create this formula, i got it from the guys at plastercity yesterday where they are working on the new RED Reel.

and when i said 4k file, i meant to say 2k proxy, versus a 1k proxy...

clarification when you shoot 4k you create 2k "H.mov" files, when you shoot 2k, you create 1k "H.mov" files. so they look the same in the finder, but the 2k h.mov is clearly different than the 1k h.mov, the physical size is different and your ability to play it back is different.

this combo allows you to playback and fcp does the resize automatically for the 1k files to the 2k size.

the 1k h.mov files will have black pillarbox on each side as the actual aspect ratio is different. but it is very close in size.

it does not run at full playback on my On-Set iMac, (unless i render and it is a 4:1 render time on a 2.8ghz, 4 gigs of ram new 24" iMac") but does on a 8 core tower with 4 gigs of ram.

 

[Michael Stanmore]

Thanks Kosmos and Ylem.

That's pretty interesting. Looks like it can be achieved to some extent, as soon as FCP can render out a 4K final movie from the editing that's been done to the proxies in the timeline in 2K...

Well I'm not a REAL Reduser 'til february 30th or so. But after that I'll be looking at everything I can to find a workflow for us pawpers to squeeze glorious 4K out of nothing more (or very little more) than FCS2 on an 8core Mac. I'll post a "Lowend 4K" thread with suggestions then.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

what provides the seamless playback is the combination of the new codec, the original timeline settings, the new fcp patch, and the first piece of content brought to establish the "real" project properties.

redcode is only a playback format, you can not write to redcode right now. so if you want to mix and match 2k and 4k clips without having to manual resize and render, this is the combination that works.

it allows the content (4k, 2k varispeed) to be autoconformed to playback in real time. you must have a system with a bit of muscle, but it works great.

i did not create this formula, i got it from the guys at plastercity yesterday where they are working on the new RED Reel.

and when i said 4k file, i meant to say 2k proxy, versus a 1k proxy...

clarification when you shoot 4k you create 2k "H.mov" files, when you shoot 2k, you create 1k "H.mov" files. so they look the same in the finder, but the 2k h.mov is clearly different than the 1k h.mov, the physical size is different and your ability to play it back is different.

this combo allows you to playback and fcp does the resize automatically for the 1k files to the 2k size.

the 1k h.mov files will have black pillarbox on each side as the actual aspect ratio is different. but it is very close in size.

it does not run at full playback on my On-Set iMac, (unless i render and it is a 4:1 render time on a 2.8ghz, 4 gigs of ram new 24" iMac") but does on a 8 core tower with 4 gigs of ram.

Thanks for the follow-up, much appreciated.

 

[Gian Joon]

Workflow

Workflow

Thanks dip.

I don't mind if I have to finish NOT in realtime though...

If I can cut my movie using the 1k or 2k proxies (or whatever I happen to use)... in FCP

then use the EDL and piece the film back together in a program like colour? Would that work? It wouldn't be in Real Time, but I could possibly work out my colour grade using downrezzed files... and apply the grade to the full 4K files...

I'm just trying to work out the full Mariachi... Even if it means a week of rendering... or even a month! If it saves thousands of dollars in onlining costs.

It would be a tedious workflow and obviously avoided by anyone who could afford to do it a better way... But still... Red is opening doors to some of us who have no right to dream such dreams... Would be a shame if we have to finish to 720P or 1440X1080 DVCProHD just because we can't figure a workaround to get our edit back to the glorious 4K we started with.

Good on YOU, Myktyl. That is exactly what I am planning to do. There has been a lot of talk about FCP not being capable of handling Filmouts in some threads. FCP will do everything we need only with some extra time. Does that matter. No. Not if we are planning a low budget film. Once we have couple of productions under our belt, we can go to best of Post Production Houses and get the job done. Until then, it is RED+FCP+COLOR+AFTEREFFECT

 

[Michael Stanmore]

Joon, so After effects is going to be able to hack it in 4k? Can you set up a new project at that resolution (I guess that's the only factor... it's not doing anything realtime so it can take as long as it wants to calculate...)

I got no problem tediously piecing my movie together in AE if the program can do it... put music on and do one sequence a day...