Assimilate has released SCRATCH RED Pre-Post

[Bruce Allen]

Thx, Luke,

anyway I do much appreciate your product and until now it will be my first choice when I'll have my reds. But in the meantime i hope some company will come up with a sollution to give us this full 4k feed to that projector while grading?

Would it cause a problem having a 4k projector. Will we ever be able to upgrade to 4k anyway?

I don't want to step into this argument so will try to stick to "facts" (or rather tech specs found on websites ...

If you REALLY want to play 4K, Laguun is right, the DVS Clipster folks seem to do that sort of thing, via 4x dual link HD-SDI:
http://www.dvs.de/english/products/videosystems/clipster.html

I think you guys know my position on this - that unless you're building a post house for ultra-ultra-high-end stuff (meaning you or your clients have a burning desire to always work at higher res than most Hollywood blockbuster films), this is unnecessary.

I can see, however, that there are some select cases that this would be very useful, maybe more in the future.

This is a slightly tricky branding issue for Red as on one hand they are using the word 4K whenever possible to sell the Red and on the other RedCine, Scratch, etc (the only systems that can read .R3D files) cannot be connected up to a 4K projector and used to actually play out 4K.

That doesn't mean RedCine, or Scratch is bad. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't acquire in 4K. It just means that 4K FINISHES are bleeding edge. And that the true value of the Red for most people is not in a 4K finish.

To people like laguun who are taking Red at their word on this whole 4K thing, this is obviously very frustrating.

I wish this could be a less personal argument though. I have met Luki and he's a great guy, who has offered to help me out on things when there was no monetary reward whatsoever, I am not a Scratch client, etc. Scratch seems like a very good system for many Red users.

I'm sure laguun is a nice guy too. You guys are both very smart, just talking at cross purposes, methinks.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[GlennChan]

Laguun... there is no need to be hostile, inflammatory, or otherwise rude. Please read Lucas' and Rob's posts carefully... their posts should have answered your questions.

If you need to work in true 4K and interactively monitor your grading in 4K, then export DPXs (or other type of data file) and conform them into your favorite finishing system. e.g. similar to what was done with Crossing The Line.

2- Scratch offers alternative workflows... they have their own advantages and limitations. Scratch can read either the r3d file directly or 4K DPXs... these two routes have different limitations so please do not confuse them.

3- And again, please do not belittle others with insults such as Lucas "overselling" Scratch when this is hardly the case. He has been very candid with what Scratch can and cannot do.

Cheers and happy holidays!

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Quote:

"With its DI systems, DVS is the only company in the world that makes real-time 4K-processing possible. "

LINK>>>

DVS CLIPSTER® with RAID-5

DVS Digital Video Inc. Burbank, California - USA

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Just out of curiousity (I'm not in the market for DI), how much does Clipster cost?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I don't know and I have to ask a local dealer for the price.

Also DVS Clipster Serves up DALSA Origin 4K "Western" Footage at NAB>>>

So DVS Clipster is a competing technology to SCRATCH.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

History will repeat itself. I went through all this in the early 90's in the photography pre-press world. At that time Photoshop wasn't yet on the market and I was faced with buying a software/hardware package from SGI for over 100K! Now a $700 program (Photoshop) is way more powerful and the industry standard. SGI is now learning the same lesson. As will any of these companies that don't see the light. I was once a builder of high end PC's and did everything I could to avoid using Macs.... after years of suffering I now have five Macs and haven't turned on a PC in over a year. Any company that wants to stay in this business needs to support the Mac side.

FCP will offer everything we need in good time. Avid is next in line to be a thing of the past unless they too get with it. This has been happening since the days of Mainframes and Mini's. It's just simple economics. Remember how much Shake or Final Touch Color used to cost?

And in the end we (filmmakers) all benefit from it the most.

 

[M Most]

Just out of curiousity (I'm not in the market for DI), how much does Clipster cost?

Last time I checked, about $120K with minimal storage and without some software options.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

different color paradigm than RED Alert or REDCINE

different color paradigm than RED Alert or REDCINE

I found this in another thread:

SCRATCH works with a different color paradigm than RED Alert or REDCINE.
Luki

Anyone care to elaborate?

 

[Rob Lohman]

This is a slightly tricky branding issue for Red as on one hand they are using the word 4K whenever possible to sell the Red and on the other RedCine, Scratch, etc (the only systems that can read .R3D files) cannot be connected up to a 4K projector and used to actually play out 4K.

That doesn't mean RedCine, or Scratch is bad. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't acquire in 4K. It just means that 4K FINISHES are bleeding edge. And that the true value of the Red for most people is not in a 4K finish.

To people like laguun who are taking Red at their word on this whole 4K thing, this is obviously very frustrating.

Why though? We aren't selling a 4K display system. We are selling a 4K *recording* system with post-production software to manipulate that information.

All the tools we give you allow you to export a full 4K image and some tools even allow you to see the image pixel for pixel (REDCINE). So you do get 4K output!!

However, we don't offer the option of display 4K in real-time since it's near impossible to do without spending way more than what you paid for the camera.

 

[Rob Lohman]

This will be my last response on this too...

i think i started using the 3840*2400 display panels five years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T221
usually sell for ~1000-2000 on ebay.

That's not a 4K display... it's close, but it's not 4K

so. why do we want a 4k camera then?

Do I really have to explain it all? Let's see... maybe to laser print to film? To be able to zoom in and reposition the camera if you're doing lower than 4K output. For future proofing?

That you can't real-time watch the 4K stream coming from the compressed R3D files doesn't mean you can't watch it all. Simply output to 4K DPX and load that into your favorite Clipster product or onto a 4K playback server. Problem solved. As Lucas indicated almost none of the major post houses actually display in 4K.... (for very good reasons).

If you want to do that then you're going to spend a lot of $$$ and have a slower post workflow. Even if we integrated with Clipster that doesn't mean you can magically playback the compressed footage in real-time. The wavelet decompression is extremely resource intensive.

1) half a second? luki tries always to promote it as realtime.
scratch ISNT´T realtime 4k.

It is, but not in 4K display resolution (from R3D). It truly is from 4K DPX (without display in 4K). If you want to display 4K then it isn't indeed. Quite simple to understand. Again, your definition of real-time doesn't seem to match ours.

2) 8 core mac osx scratch? last time i checked osx wasn´t an option for scratch, only windows. so, rebooting between osx fcp and windows scratch. furthermore - no hd-sdi output via scratch on the osx. not quad, dual or single. i think there are user who would want to use osx for 4k mastering.

I never claimed Scratch ran on OS X, for the most stuff I'm talking REDCINE anyway

3) for a typical networked production environment, i need files i can -access-.
it won´t help editorial, 3d, vfs, graphics or sound that i have the 4k master sitting on the undecoed 8.125% realtime system if they want to access it.

for workgroups, EVERYONE needs -direct- access to the -4k- masterfiles.

They won't be able to VIEW 4K, so it will be realtime for them at lower resolutions. What don't you understand about this?

scratch and fcp might be nice - but both aren´t the necessary platform for a solid longform production with dozens or hundreds of people involved.

That's why we're building other tools and have promised to work on integration with other products. Again, what's unclear about this?

i think that this is the most weak aspect in any red-workflow.
we need open systems and codecs.
not artifical restriction.

What artificial restriction? We have told you a million times that we ARE IN DEVELOPMENT. We've also told you half a dozen times we will work on integration with others, but you have to START SOMEWHERE. Otherwise there would be no product for the next two years.

Which other digital cinema camera manufacturer integrates with your list of software?

so, do you recommend to pull a key on the "lower" quality? to judge the noise on a darker shot in "lower" quality"? and how do we

I don't... that's why you export your tiff or dpx clip for vfx to pull keys on whatever they're using. You can switch to full high quality to check noise and stuff.

we we display the full 4k source.

Again, on what? Almost no-one has a 4K display...

youw ould need a system as a dvs clipster for this.

Yes, that is correct. We've never promised to deliver 4K display with this camera. We are planning on building 4K displays & projectors though.

dvs clipster is one of several.
i just name this system as its the same price as scratch.

But it isn't.... (the same price)

so, why shoot on 4k then?

See above

red really should open to 3hrd parties.
asap.

Can you stop time?

the power of the camera, its excellent pricepoint, its awesome market awareness are and will be highly reduced if you don´t offer at -least- a solution on one operation system.

DPX or TIFF output at full resolution is not an option? We have that on TWO platforms. As well as up to 2K editing in a major NLE..... not a bad *START* imho

no support for the existing 4k di systems.

Sure we do. Output DPX or TIFF, like they ARE USED of getting.

Again, end of discussion. We are very clear on what we have today. We are very clear on the fact we're in development. We're very clear on the fact we hope to integrate with more products in the near future.

If that doesn't satisfy you (or someone else) then I'm sorry....

 

[Bruce Allen]

Why though? We aren't selling a 4K display system. We are selling a 4K *recording* system with post-production software to manipulate that information.

I think what Laguun wants is for your 4K recording system's codec to be readable by the systems on the market that can display 4K. I'm sure he's just being impatient and that at some point you guys will allow the other vendors to read your file format.

Nothing wrong with this system - it's a lot like film. But for those expecting an open end-to-end system a la Panasonic / Sony DV, HDV, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM it is a surprise.

If Sony had said that they weren't going to allow Avid to read the DV format, and that you'd have to run their DVCine program to export frames, there would obviously be some grumbling amongst post folks. Even if DVCine were cool as heck, like RedCine is.

I'm sure you guys are still tweaking the codec and it's a lot easier to debug if you only have one decoding program (otherwise, people would be claiming that Red firmware v1.984 breaks Avid's Red RAW import v2.176...). Here if you figure out a good tweak, you can implement it and not worry about compatibility.

So as an ex-programmer I think you're taking the right course of action so far because it'll result in a superior RedCode. We just hope that you guys open up the .R3D format somewhat in the future. Just as there are many Nikon / Canon lovers who similarly don't like encrypted / obfuscated RAW files.

EDIT: another analogy would be in the still camera world:

1. Nikon releases the D400... super cheap super cool, etc.
2. Nikon bundles "Adobe Lightroom LE" free with the camera (eg RedCine), which can output frames
3. Adobe Lightroom (eg Scratch) can read D400 raw files
4. Apple Aperture, Capture One, etc (eg all other RAW readers) cannot read D400 RAW files
5. People who complain that Apple Aperture can't read D400 files get told by Nikon that "we make cameras and provide software that outputs it - if you want to use Aperture, export TIFFS from Lightroom LE and import... or use our JPEG wrapper system - deal with it!"

Personally I think the workflow is great for my needs (Quicktime wrappers work really well, etc), superior to pretty much anything on the market. Recording to CF cards and hard drives is way superior to tape, P2 cards, etc. But for that tiny fraction of folks like laguun, I can see why they have problems.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I think what Laguun wants is for your 4K recording system's codec to be readable by the systems on the market that can display 4K. I'm sure he's just being impatient and that at some point you guys will allow the other vendors to read your file format....
But for that tiny fraction of folks like laguun, I can see why they have problems.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I really like your posts in this thread, boa, they're very good at reframing the basic argument into a more debate style context, instead of a pissing match. And this is, in my opinion, one of the more interesting post production threads on the board.
However, I'd disagree with the wording of your last post, specifically, that it's only a "tiny fraction" of folks that are impatient for Red to start allowing other vendors to read the file format......methinks it's more like everyone who isn't using FCP and Scratch.
Your analogy on Rob's answer regarding allowing other systems to read the Red Codec is bang on. (Paraphrasing Rob) "that's what we've chosen to do....we're in development...you wouldn't have had a postflow for two years...." Sorry Rob. Seems like obfuscating. As Lagoon put it, it's a political decision and has very little to do with time or lack thereof.

 

[Deanan]

How do you realtime 4k editing or vfx on film (aside from a moviola ? You scan it in and convert to dpx.

We never said we weren't going to support AVID, Clipster, Discreet, etc. and we've talked to all of them. Our current plans not going to change until the workflows with apple and assimilate are solid and the resources are free to support other vendors. Until then, alot of words are wasted trying to convince us of what we're already planning on doing.

With the camera, algorithms, everything else constantly changing and being updated, we are already working overtime constantly just to support two vendors.

It's not trivial to just open up support to anyone. It takes alot of work on both sides and solid commitment on both sides.

Deanan (working on thanksgiving day in the car debugging software with Rob )

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

So RED software Pandora's box is open now and we can see that Rob Lohman, Code Chef @ RED and Lukas Wilson from Assimilate/Scratch are playing for the same club.

REDCINE is a newborn product of this club.

A couple of main questions still stay without any clear answer:

1. Is REDCINE going to get more like "Confirm" and "Finishing" features (plug-ins) in the near future from SCRATCH or not?

2. Is SCRATCH porting to MAC OS X?

3. Is R3D codec going to be available for many other third parties soon?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thank you Evolve... one more thing -

People shouldn't be upset with Red / Assimilate. They are doing a great thing.

The people letting us down here are not Red but their competitors.

If Arri, Sony, Pana, Dalsa, Thomspon, etc offered everything that Red did, plus an open-source file format, for a lower price, then Red would probably move to compete. At the moment, the competitors are doing a great disservice to the name of "free market"

Likewise, DVS / Clipster etc, if they were smart, should be not only begging Red for .R3D info but saying "how can we help?" "can we at least announce a timetable?" "we know that working with us will cost Red resources - can we pay for you guys to hire more people?".

Laguun, hopefully you are ripping into DVS right now for not getting active on the Red issue. I have certainly done my best with Avid.

However, I'd disagree with the wording of your last post, specifically, that it's only a "tiny fraction" of folks that are impatient for Red to start allowing other vendors to read the file format......methinks it's more like everyone who isn't using FCP and Scratch.

Yeah, I mostly use Avid, so consider myself part of that tiny fraction too I can't wait for native .r3d support, of course! Even in things like After Effects (which has semi-decent HDR / color management now) - loading .R3D files natively with full gamut and without having to convert would rock. Although I'm sure a Quicktime wrapper will be fine for most cases.

Your analogy on Rob's answer regarding allowing other systems to read the Red Codec is bang on. (Paraphrasing Rob) "that's what we've chosen to do....we're in development...you wouldn't have had a postflow for two years...." Sorry Rob. You're obfuscating. As Lagoon put it, it's a political decision and has very little to do with time or lack thereof.

Oh boy, I hope it won't be two years! I am hoping it's mostly a programming / codec tweaking / bug fix thing. Agreed some is political though, here would be my "arguments in favor of current Red strategy (which I am assuming is "work closely with Assimilate and Apple then later open up and expand support"):

1. We get RedCine free (big bonus, compared to the usual vendor RAW conversion software - it is very sweet stuff)

2.a - Red can control image quality and their brand reputation more easily - eg what if Avid / discreet / DVS writes .R3D reader with horrible DeBayer algorithm and they all of those users say "Red quality sucks" not "their DeBayer sucks"? That would cause Red rental prices to go down and hurt Red's customers (eg those buying cameras).

2.b - when they do open up support, Red quality will be more established / entrenched and the other vendors will have to try to match / beat the Assimilate interpretation.

3. RedCode can be tweaked totally with minimal support overhead. Right now, there's nothing to stop them from writing a totally new algorithm if they felt like it (then RedCine just checks the .R3D file to see if it is using the "v1" RedCode algorithm, or the "v2" RedCode algorithm, and uses the appropriate decoder, like Quicktime has many codecs). So that keeps things flexible and allows for things like more frame rate / format options, etc. Also I have seen / experienced quite a few glitches (everything from weird artifacts to frames simply not loading) in the current RedCode so think it's great they keep improving it.

4. You get a finishing company intimately involved in the codec development. That's a very good thing - they know better than the camera developers how to balance compression, etc (eg the tradeoff between quantization, image smoothness, etc) for final finishing.

5. If you take things as a whole, for those who don't own HDCAM SR decks, etc, going through RedCine (even if they never allow native .R3D support across other apps) will probably beat the workflow of competing cameras. That's good.

The disadvantages have been stated above. Personally I feel that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, although yes I am going nuts waiting for Avid support. I'm sure it'll happen soon.

Why Assimilate? Well, they seem very nice and to have an underrated product. Also, Iridas SpeedGrade was already partnered with Silicon Imaging?

What would be nice would be a simple joint statement from Red / Avid, Red / discreet, Red / Quantel, Red / DVS etc etc etc that they are working towards support and aiming to have something by a certain date. I can only hope (like I long for Red PPC announcements

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Deanan]

Sorry Rob. You're obfuscating. As Lagoon put it, it's a political decision and has very little to do with time or lack thereof.

Rob here (using Deanan's account): I'm not obfuscating. I've started working on this 1.5 years ago and still working on it 7 days a week. It's just not as simple as it sounds. We are still refining stuff every day which would be a nightmare if we opened everything up to everyone.

If we had done what's been suggested the product would've been delayed for at least a year while we figure out the (RED ONE specific) image processing etc.

Unfortunately it has *everything* to do with a lack of time. I soooo wish that wasn't the case so we wouldn't have to work 7 days a week. (still a kick-ass job with a kick ass boss though

Deanan: and get at most 4 hours of sleep a night, every night...
Apple and Assimilate have put ALOT of resources to making
this possible a long time ago (when everyone else was doubtful) and we are committed to making the respective workflows solid first. As Rob says, if we try to support even one more vendor, all the workflows will suffer.

 

[Bruce Allen]

How do you realtime 4k editing or vfx on film (aside from a moviola ? You scan it in and convert to dpx.

We never said we weren't going to support AVID, Clipster, Discreet, etc. and we've talked to all of them. Our current plans not going to change until the workflows with apple and assimilate are solid and the resources are free to support other vendors. Until then, alot of words are wasted trying to convince us of what we're already planning on doing.

Until Red or the 3rd parties have an actual press release that says that they are working on support (even if you don't have a timetable), speculation will continue.

We've read this from you, but everyone else who misses this post will keep asking the same question.

With the camera, algorithms, everything else constantly changing and being updated, we are already working overtime constantly just to support two vendors.

It's not trivial to just open up support to anyone. It takes alot of work on both sides and solid commitment on both sides.

Deanan (working on thanksgiving day in the car debugging software with Rob )

I have been trying to point that out to people. Not everyone is a programmer - they don't understand. Again, a simple press release or just a note on the Red webpage or the webpage of the 3rd-party vendors that support is in the works would help.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Considering that only 100 cameras are released, and the software is in beta, what's with the attitude?

Ok, so the Scratch Pre Post turnkey system is $55k. It's Assimilate's right to charge what they feel is right for their market.

It's the simple. Don't like it, then wait for the next product, while using the workarounds.

You have the RedAlert and RedCine, the media can be converted to DPX, 16bit TIFF, etc. It's not a new workflow, it's how things have been done for years.

Yes we want native support of r3d files in everything, but that'll come soon enough. Look at how long it took to support all the other cameras that have been released over the years. Native support isn't an instantaneous thing.

Evolve, I don't know what you spent 12 years doing with Avids, but it doesn't seem like its high end post to me.

Otherwise you'd know from experience that editing realtime with Avid Meridian isn't the same as realtime 2k/4k DI.

There's more to a DI than $3k or free software. DI involves color correction, color science, editorial conforming, asset management, systems integration, and the list goes on.

Will there be really affordable DI? Of course there will because everything gets cheaper and better, it's only a matter of time. It's just that no one knows when for sure.

You may say we have it now with Apple Color. I say Color is just one part of the whole, the rest isn't there yet. There are no conform or asset management tools yet. As of now, you lock picture, then go to Color.

As far as affecting the high end post, I don't see it happening as much as you think. If it's cheaper and better, the clients want it faster, and/or they want more things done.

There are enough people here who've experienced the post evolution, who know that you're still racing against the clock to get things done, it's just that there's much more of it.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

...
2. Is SCRATCH porting to MAC OS X?

I've explained many many times why this will not happen unless Apple changes some fairly fundamental card and driver support issues.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

(gorged on cranberries, turkey, and pecan pie. I love pecan pie.)

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Considering that only 100 cameras are released, and the software is in beta, what's with the attitude?

Scratch isn't in beta Thomas. No attitude here, just trying to put a view forward. Sorry that it's not the same as everyone elses.

Ok, so the Scratch Pre Post turnkey system is $55k. It's Assimilate's right to charge what they feel is right for their market.

Yup. Never said it wasn't. Just was pointing out that things are changing fast, and that they might be able to get a step up with a lower pricetag. Again, MHO.

It's the simple. Don't like it, then wait for the next product, while using the workarounds.

Gee, that's not very proactive is it?

You have the RedAlert and RedCine, the media can be converted to DPX, 16bit TIFF, etc. It's not a new workflow, it's how things have been done for years.

Right. And I guess I think that's exactly the reason why things should change. In the spirit of the Red Revolution.

Evolve, I don't know what you spent 12 years doing with Avids, but it doesn't seem like its high end post to me.

Sorry? First off, that comment was made in regards to something that mmost had said, and secondly, editing on Avid was fairly high end post for a long time on longer narrative work. Now, finishing and ad work is a different story. But time also caught up with Avid. They were the only game in town for so long that they didn't bother upgrading their systems or lowering prices, and then FCP showed up, out of the blue, and changed the game.

Otherwise you'd know from experience that editing realtime with Avid Meridian isn't the same as realtime 2k/4k DI.

Actually, you don't need experience to figure that one out. But thanks for that. Out of curiosity, what's your background?

There's more to a DI than $3k or free software. DI involves color correction, color science, editorial conforming, asset management, systems integration, and the list goes on.

Who said 'free software'? I'm aware of what DI involves. Although I would submit that the conform is part of systems integration. And someone has posted on this site that they put together hardware for about 2.5K that when bundled with Scratch handled the 2K output in realtime. So that coupled with a 3k software package works out to roughly 6 grand. Which doesnt really mean anything in relation to your comment, but then again, this comment really had nothing to do with any of my posts either.

As far as affecting the high end post, I don't see it happening as much as you think. If it's cheaper and better, the clients want it faster, and/or they want more things done.

Well that's fine, that's your opinion on the matter. It's my belief that things have already changed in high end post, and will continue to change. Better and more of it for less means that there's less profit margin if you've got high overhead. It's analogous to the situation with outsourcing manufacturing to the third world come to think of it, although instead of cheaper labour, it's cheaper software as a result of coding innovation and more coders. Lots of post shops and high end shops have gone belly up in Toronto, mostly because of high overhead costs related to hardware and client servicing making them uncompetitive in an increasingly competitive market. It's no different for DI shops either by the way. Why would a client pay for a service they can attain at half or a quarter of the cost? Know what will happen if DI shops lose their customers to upstarts who find workarounds, who lose only a fraction of the quality, but save a great deal of money? You can say goodbye to small independant software companies like Assimilate, which sucks, because independant and small to me often equates with innovation and progress. Kinda like Red.
But I don't know any of it. It's just an opinion I have you know? And I share it. The DI market is a very niche market. It's a real question as to the number of 4K finishes that will be required in the future. Maybe the stuff will be beamed onto our 4K cinema screens on the wall at home in realtime in time for the 2010 olympics. That would change the market for sure. And the price of systems would plummet like a stone. Or not. I believe I'll have a beer.:shifty: