RAW RULES and 720/1080 debate

[Mark L. Pederson]

You guys ready ...

720 AND 1080 HD are just TWO of many, DELIVERY FORMATS.

RAW RULES!

COMPACT FLASH IS KILLER.

and I almost forgot to mention FILM IS DEAD.


It's been a week and two days since Offhollywood picked up #0006 & #0007. All but one day, the cameras have been shooting.

We have been testing and demo-ing non-stop for pretty much the WIDEST RANGE of potential clients interested in working with the RED cameras in New York. Including indie features, studio feature, high-end commercials, fashion, and corporate.

I can tell you this - NOBODY WANTS TO SHOOT 720 OR 1080. PERIOD. As soon as you show them the image in 4K, and show them how easy it is to pull a frame and use it as a still for publicity or print - how easy it is to do an "extraction" of just part of frame - or to oversample and produce stunning 720 or 1080 - THEY ALL WANT TO SHOOT IN 4K.

So, back to the debate of eliminating 720 and 1080 as record formats - those of you that screamed "our clients will insist, etc." - I can assure you that IF you clients get a proper demonstration of the workflow - they will ALL insist on you shooting 4K. Period.

It is a HUGE waste of time for RED to put resources into enabeling those formats as record options. There are MUCH better things that the Red team can do with their time that work on something NOBODY will use.

It took me almost a week for the whole RAW thing to REALLY sink in. You need to FORGET everything you know about HD. If you know FILM or better yet, DSLR/RAW shooting - you will have an easier time - but it takes some time to "re-program" your brain.

You shoot for dynamic range and composition. NOT for pretty pictures.

You make pretty picture in POST. And WOW you can swing around in post. It will BLOW YOUR MIND. And I am actually NOT that easy to impress, and pretty post savy - as we do DI's for features.

RAW RULES!!

Once you do it, and do it right - you will NEVER want to shoot any other way. Trust me.

Compact Flash is easy and fast. Small and light. I am very skeptical that we will use the RED DRIVES much. And we are rolling with 8 gig cards. When we can get 16 Gig cards ... screw the drives. For docs and nature ... sure. But I got to tell you - BUY MORE CF - it is KILLER.

FILM IS DEAD.

Yes, people will shoot on it as long as Kodak makes it. But Kodak will only make it if they are making money on it (and still in business). It's really about RELEASE PRINTS now. As long as the primary distribution element for fetaures is a 35mm print - Kodak will be punchin' perfs - but that clock is TICKING.

Film is beautiful and romantic. Personally, I love it. But ... it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE ANYMORE to shoot feature films on 35mm.

Put me in a room with ANYBODY who intends to shoot their film on 35mm for two hours and I will get them to shoot RED 4K.

All it takes is a proper demonstration.

Now, a bunch of you can bash me, and tell me what a jerk I am ... how I don't know anything, etc. etc.

but I am shooting 4K with Red cameras ... every day.

 

[Jarred Land]

I promise we didn't pay mark to say that

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Mark,
Much appreciated. Not having even sniffed a RED yet, mine comes in at the end of December, this kind of feedback is gold dust.

Keep up the good work,
Mark.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Based on what I've seen so far. I'll echo offhollywoods comments. The only worrying thing for me is the aspect that so few Post Houses have scratch to currenttly offer a RAW workflow to clients... I can just see people still Asking for 8 bit targas of HD red frames, because their flame can't handle anything better.

 

[Jared VanLeuven]

Amen, brutha! (Sunday talk)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Based on what I've seen so far. I'll echo offhollywoods comments. The only worrying thing for me is the aspect that so few Post Houses have scratch to currenttly offer a RAW workflow to clients... I can just see people still Asking for 8 bit targas of HD red frames, because their flame can't handle anything better.

oh ... I forgot to mention FLAME IS DEAD.

 

[Joel Kaye]

but I am shooting 4K with Red cameras ... every day.

Ok, stop rubbing it in. :clown2:

Can't wait to see all the good stuff you've been shooting. I'm also glad you guys in NY and LA are doing the initial sales pitches because that'll sell the rest of the world if clients there get excited about RED.

Flame is dead

You want to expand on that?

 

[Kenn Michael]

That was a FANTASTIC post Mark!!!!! This is what I've been telling my peers and production partners for months now... The only difference is that I don't have a camera sitting there to prove it....

....yet....

 

[Paul Hazlett]

While this is encouraging news it is also troubling.

I was hoping to use Red for clients like Real Sports or some ESPN
features we shoot, and possibly gain a better foothold on such shoots.

However with the additional steps required to DI the Red footage at all
times, take the footage and edit shoots are no longer an option unless
they have someone on staff able to do the work(unlikely) or want to spend
the time(very unlikely). the whole beauty of 1080 or 720 output was a
Red look that was record and fly ready, no matter how it got into the system
it would be edit ready.

There was the option of recording throught the HD-SDI but if you are shooting
to protect the highlights, that leaves a rather flat image on the outset.

 

[albert rudnicki]

Alleluia

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Sorry Mark,

Not only do I respectfully disagree. I cannot understand why you have chosen to bring up this up again.

Jim and Co. have already picked a solution that is a win-win for everyone with the creation of two firmwares. This solution was embraced by the RED community and put to rest. It does not do us any good when you say RED is "Wasting their time".

I think it's safe for me to say I speak for many when I say no one WANTS to shoot 1080 or 720 (Actually, perhaps people who do not have your capital and must still edit on older, slower systems with less stoage capacity DO WANT to edit on 1080 or 720). We are doing what we must to keep our respective client bases happy.

I know you are a big wig in the industry, and you have earned the right to be one, but in this case I think the better approach is a SUGGESTION that if people are not sold on 4k shooting they should TRY to convince their clients to take a look. If not then use the 1080 firmware with our blessings.

There are many shooters moving from MiniDV to the RED. 720 can be a big jump.. As for me, I await 2k REDCode RAW scaled

While the high end productions are getting all the press, RED was built to be accessable to MANY people in the production spectrum. It's a fair bet that many of them will not have a lot of capital or other resourses. I know of two future RED owners who plan to make extensive use of the 480p selection in REDCine. They are embarrassed to say anything but my stance is who cares about the resolution.. If it's a good gig and they pay on time, 480p rules!

I don't think we need to tell anyone they are wrong in order for us to be right. I like multiple solutions, and I believe RED was founded on that.

Hope this does not come across as advasarial, but I believe in what I am saying.

Respectfully
Jay

 

[Desert Rune]

I can tell you this - NOBODY WANTS TO SHOOT 720 OR 1080. PERIOD.

Thank you for speaking for everybody. :sarcasm:

Maybe we should get rid of 2K too, since res-wise, it's pretty close to 1080p. But who wants to shoot 1080P.. true it's more work to downsample from 4K but time is un-important for ENG/EFP shooters, etc.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

There was the option of recording throught the HD-SDI but if you are shooting
to protect the highlights, that leaves a rather flat image on the outset.

Would it be possible to ad a lut on the HD-SDI output??

 

[Jeff Brue]

Well in regards to the Flame is dead comment, heh hate to say it but clients are usually more than willing to "process" the data to get it into a format that will work in those flames. Whats interesting is that I just compare it to the Phantom camera jobs we've had. Yes you can work in DPX's but its a much better thing to work in 32 bit float coming off the debayer... and the only game in town for that is going to be scratch.

On an interesting side note I do have to say I also love some of the ideas that Red is doing in regards to the quicktime codec, from a vfx point of view. With the LUT being not burned into the quicktime reference movie just having the setting be there. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities for collaboration between colorists and vfx artists, because damnit for all intents and purposes its a 3d LUT that can be integrated into any app be it shake or nuke that can read a quicktime codec and all you have to do to replace the grade is copy over a 5k quicktime reference movie.

This combined with the idea of working with proxy's for fx at say 1k and just replacing the quicktime reference for the full 4k for render.... it just keeps getting cooler and cooler.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

4K until 8K

4K until 8K

8k is coming. Not for quite a while yet, but it is still coming. I don't know why anyone would want to choose 720/1080 over Redcode Raw 4K. Given that the Redcode Raw format can be delivered into any smaller format I just don't get why you would want only to capture in 720 or 1080. I understand that people are always concerned about extending record times but Redcode Raw gives you 3 to 5 hours on the 320 gig Red Drive. For me it's Redcode Raw all the way. And when 8K comes it's not such a big upconvert. Isn't one of the most beautiful things about shooting in 4k, besides the beautiful pictures, the longevity of our images?

 

[Fence sitter]

Can the red simulate a look in the camera's viewfinder. Is it possible to grab a frame in Redcine or similar and then load the lut into the camera for in camera preview?

Fence

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Sorry Mark,

Not only do I respectfully disagree. I cannot understand why you have chosen to bring up this up again.

Jay -

I am bringing it up because I am doing tests and demonstrations for all types of clients. And I am seeing what THEY respond to and what THEY want.

Jim and Co. have already picked a solution that is a win-win for everyone with the creation of two firmwares. This solution was embraced by the RED community and put to rest. It does not do us any good when you say RED is "Wasting their time".

That's cool. That is RED's choice. But that choice is based on people being very vocal WITHOUT shooting RED 4K and / or WORKING with RED 4K. So I think it should be OKAY for me to be VERY VOCAL after shooting a lot of RED 4K and working with it, don't you think?

I think it's safe for me to say I speak for many when I say no one WANTS to shoot 1080 or 720 (Actually, perhaps people who do not have your capital and must still edit on older, slower systems with less stoage capacity DO WANT to edit on 1080 or 720). We are doing what we must to keep our respective client bases happy.

You will be able to work with your 4K REDCODE RAW FASTER AND EASIER THAN P2 or DVCPROHD. Cut in realtime direct from files ...? What else would you like?

I know you are a big wig in the industry, and you have earned the right to be one, but in this case I think the better approach is a SUGGESTION that if people are not sold on 4k shooting they should TRY to convince their clients to take a look. If not then use the 1080 firmware with our blessings.

Well ... "big wig" is REALLY PUSHING IT. I am just passionate. And failure is not an option. And (as Jim said) they will have to kill me to stop me.

There are many shooters moving from MiniDV to the RED. 720 can be a big jump.. As for me, I await 2k REDCode RAW scaled

While the high end productions are getting all the press, RED was built to be accessable to MANY people in the production spectrum. It's a fair bet that many of them will not have a lot of capital or other resourses. I know of two future RED owners who plan to make extensive use of the 480p selection in REDCine. They are embarrassed to say anything but my stance is who cares about the resolution.. If it's a good gig and they pay on time, 480p rules!

I don't think we need to tell anyone they are wrong in order for us to be right. I like multiple solutions, and I believe RED was founded on that.

Hope this does not come across as advasarial, but I believe in what I am saying.

Respectfully
Jay

Did not come across as ADVASARIAL at all Jay. What I am TRYING to express is that you can THINK what you want - when you start working with this and seeing it - YOU WILL UNDERSTAND. 4K REDCODE RAW is AMAZING.

 

[PMascetta]

Im going to interject on this one because I am increasingly irritated by the irrational arguments that always seem in ensue when I comes to the matters of resolution. People argue this way and that way about why no one would want to shoot at the resolution blah blah blah
The fact of the matter is that there are people out their who would like to shoot at lower resolutions, for whatever reason, and they are fair in expressing concern when those possibilities are put into jeopardy. Lower resolution ability means more tools to tell a story and anyone who disputes that is not very intelligent.
There are countless reasons to shoot at low resolutions including inserts, historical reference, or even as Oliver Stone did in natural born killers to take you into different atmospheres dependent what was being conveyed in the story. He used 8mm to cover the wedding scene and it worked wonderfully.
So I would suggest that these arguments cease, the resolutions that were presented from the beginning kept, and everyone go out and shoot some god damn great footage regardless of the resolution.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

You want to expand on that?

pretty sure it's called PIPELINE. but you didn't hear that from me.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

That's cool Mark. I understand and respect your point. Let's just agree to disagree.

As long as RED does not cancel it's plan for two firmwares, I have no problem with you being as passionate as you wish!!



Jay