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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet brain + what ?

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ROCKMORE

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What minimum extras will need to be purchased along with the Scarlet 2/3 brain to start shooting besides lenses?
 
So, the base prices are really camera heads, rather than a handheld/shoulder mount functional camera? It would be much better if the base model at least, came as a full kit for the price.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
So, the base prices are really camera heads, rather than a handheld/shoulder mount functional camera? It would be much better if the base model at least, came as a full kit for the price.
Click to expand...

The base prices are the "brains", excepting the 2/3" fixed lens Scarlet "Complete Kit" which is the only works-out-of-the-box solution announced so far. We aren't sure exactly what that comprises, however.

The reason for not simply putting a price on the full kit is that there isn't a single full kit. Different people with different needs will purchase vastly different accessories. Someone gearing up for a run and gun documentary shoot may spend a couple of thousand dollars...someone getting together a kit for a cinema camera may spend four or five times that.

Think of the price difference between the cost of a kit with REDhandle "SLR grip" with battery, small LCD, and CF card module.

Then think of the price of a kit with REDhandle accessory, CF card module, fullsize 3x battery module, RAID bay module, I/O Module, EVF, 7" LCD, rails, mattebox, followfocus, baseplate, dovetail, etc. Even though the price of the brain is the same, the cost of the support modules may easily triple that (I would think...we don't have prices on any of these things) making it impossible for RED to really put a sticker on a single setup.

The idea is that RED doesn't stick us with a single "kit" that is much more than some want, but much less than what others want, causing virtually everyone to compromise and find workarounds. Instead they let us custom build (and pay for) exactly what we want and need.
 
I BELIEVE they mean to supply some sort of Mic/Audio input (XLR + phantom power) input on the "complete" kit. If it is, as they say, "ready to shoot" out the box.
If not... you (we) are in for the piecemeal nickel and diming (a nickel being the euphemistic $500) to get the thing functioning.
 
Impagliazzo said:
Except the FIXED version, because it says: KIT FOR 3750$.
Click to expand...

That's what I meant, the full kit for $3000 or less instead. I also thought the s35 was going to be $5000 originally.
 
Michael Olsen said:
The base prices are the "brains", excepting the 2/3" fixed lens Scarlet "Complete Kit" which is the only works-out-of-the-box solution announced so far. We aren't sure exactly what that comprises, however.

The reason for not simply putting a price on the full kit is that there isn't a single full kit. Different people with different needs will purchase vastly different accessories. Someone gearing up for a run and gun documentary shoot may spend a couple of thousand dollars...someone getting together a kit for a cinema camera may spend four or five times that.

Think of the price difference between the cost of a kit with REDhandle "SLR grip" with battery, small LCD, and CF card module.

Then think of the price of a kit with REDhandle accessory, CF card module, fullsize 3x battery module, RAID bay module, I/O Module, EVF, 7" LCD, rails, mattebox, followfocus, baseplate, dovetail, etc. Even though the price of the brain is the same, the cost of the support modules may easily triple that (I would think...we don't have prices on any of these things) making it impossible for RED to really put a sticker on a single setup.

The idea is that RED doesn't stick us with a single "kit" that is much more than some want, but much less than what others want, causing virtually everyone to compromise and find workarounds. Instead they let us custom build (and pay for) exactly what we want and need.
Click to expand...

I think that to add low cost, core, working functionality (with holdable shell, storage case and a remote would be desirable) to each model as standard might cost a few hundred dollars per camera and be, reasonably, unobjectionable. This would also be a nice backup in case anything happens to any desired lens, data recorder, battery module or LCD that where also purchased, while they are being replaced, or just for rough work in between good work (in case of damage or theft). it is just practical commonsense.

I am not talking high class features here, just nice (rather than good/great) replaceable auto/manual lens multi-focal lens, and basic: recorder (flash and SATA), battery pack (with external power connector for add your own external pack) and a basic LCD, controls and connectors (including USB 3.0). This could also all come from one module attached to the camera head. So only three camera heads are sold with standard video and power connectors, with or without the module, so basically the Fixed model just becomes a base workable camera configuration of the 2/3rd head. It may not make sense at first, it is a marketing thing.

In any case, I would like to see the lens on the fixed model become replaceable, and all models come with the auto lens as standard.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
In any case, I would like to see the lens on the fixed model become replaceable, and all models come with the auto lens as standard.
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Not Possible and not really wanted/needed. If you need Auto buy the matching brain, if not take another one.

Fixed Lens will not be replaceable. thats what the other 2/3" Brain is for.

Is like saying Canon should make the hv20 Lens replaceable. Doesn't make sense. :cute:
 
GPSchnyder said:
Not Possible and not really wanted/needed. If you need Auto buy the matching brain, if not take another one...
..
Click to expand...

I should say auto/manual lens like most good DSLR DSMC or prosumer cameras (most people will need both). It's not about copying other cameras but about doing it better, and the market is a lot lot bigger than film camera men. Most of them wont think to have a backup camera and parts on hand or not be able to afford it (and it reduces cost of manufacturer by eliminating the fixed lens and mass producing a common module).

Anyway, enough of that, it's coming in whatever form it turns up.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
...and the market is a lot lot bigger than film camera men...
Click to expand...

Yeah, maybe. But that seems not to be their market.

Not to have the fixed Scarlet to save money would be worthless now, as they have spend a lot of time and money invested into it.

And to clear some facts, there are a lot of People that want the 2/3" Fixed. Not an interchangeable one whatsoever. So they would hurt their sales not help em.

George
 
Yes, it is late in the process now, and a retooling would be expensive. However, what i mean is that the lens can do both manual and auto, so a lot of people would get little advantage much of the time in the real world, but can swap out for a better lens or just leave it in there. The price difference between have a mount of not, is little. You could just have an auto lens in the socket, with little price difference compared to fixed.

If they go for a cinema market only, maybe they will sell tens of thousands, but if they go for the bigger market then we are talking number of times more. I imagine for the price they are going for a larger market to get the volumes to reduce the cost of production.
 
The lens isn't replaceable because a large part of it's working are actually housed in the fixed scarlet "brain" and the rear elements of the lens go further into the brain than others do, meaning the sensor is in a different place.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
If they go for a cinema market only, maybe they will sell tens of thousands, but if they go for the bigger market then we are talking number of times more. I imagine for the price they are going for a larger market to get the volumes to reduce the cost of production.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure the people at RED already know that. Jannard isn't new to the business world.
 
ROCKMORE said:
What minimum extras will need to be purchased along with the Scarlet 2/3 brain to start shooting besides lenses?
Click to expand...

Pencils, a note-book, books about shooting / writing / directing, maybe literature (reading is never bad). And last but not least you'll need to have (only if not owned) a functionating(!) brain. But if you haven't got that already that could be expensive.
All together you'd spend on this about 200 dollars (without brain)


Or let's maybe better think like Hollywood:

We need at least 2 stars, costing at least 5 mio. dollars each.
Production costs at least 40 mio. dollars, I mean we are Hollywood! We have to represent something!
Catering is also important. 1 mio. dollars at least. Only the finest food!
We have also got to pay these nasty authors we don't like!

All together you'd spend here about 60 mio. dollars (without brain)


I hope I could help
 
I understand the modular approach with respect to not everybody needs a mattebox and a followfocus, some people will want a CF card reader while some need a full RAID setup, etc. But with the R1 it's $450 for a battery, another $175 for a battery mounting plate, another $550 for a battery charger. I think we can all come together on the need for a power supply so the camera turns on, can't we?!

I second the person who pointed out that there's a difference between letting us custom build and nickel and diming us.

I'm a huge Red fan, but I can't ignore that fact.

Mathias Seebacher said:
Or let's maybe better think like Hollywood:

We need at least 2 stars, costing at least 5 mio. dollars each.
Production costs at least 40 mio. dollars, I mean we are Hollywood! We have to represent something!
Catering is also important. 1 mio. dollars at least. Only the finest food!
We have also got to pay these nasty authors we don't like!

All together you'd spend here about 60 mio. dollars (without brain)


I hope I could help
Click to expand...

Ouch. You nailed it.
 
Charging those prices for batteries,chargers, and battery plates is hardly nickel and diming, you'll find similar prices for a lot of cameras in the 2/3" that don't come with batteries or chargers.

It's not nickel and dime, it just may not be obvious what you should buy with the camera. In that case, an example order might be handy, kind of like at In-n-Out. You can get a combo, but it just costs the same price as getting all the things individually.
 
Juhan Malmstein said:
The lens isn't replaceable because a large part of it's working are actually housed in the fixed scarlet "brain" and the rear elements of the lens go further into the brain than others do, meaning the sensor is in a different place.
Click to expand...

And the case could have been designed to have both via recessing (though it has to avoid interfering with lens) with the free lens sticking out a bit from the end of the case. One of my case designs allowed a recession of a still lens that would have the end of a prime lens slightly recessed. Actually, that would be a cracking design for the Scarlet, except it was meant for something with a lot less bulky circuitry ( a basic SLR lens with small camera attached).

Scott Watts said:
I'm pretty sure the people at RED already know that. Jannard isn't new to the business world.
Click to expand...

I also think they are aware of this, but I was not talking to them.

Not many people around are aware about manufacturing costs etc. To get significantly lower price, one of the main avenues past design and refinement, is increasing the numbers. At the price Red is aiming for, I think this is what they are on about too. If you do it just right, then you can take advantage of certain consumer priced bulk items (in batteries you can go more expensive for exotic higher performance technologies). However, you have to cover preproduction costs too, and for a camera like this, that could be a lot. It is like the illustration I use of people that use PC's (or IT service people and average programmers) thinking they have a grasp on it all, not realising the staggering amount that goes on past what their narrow world view sees. In this case, a better illustration would be a movie viewer thinking that they know everything about how to make a movie from seeing them.

Done now, lets see what happens :) .
 
This also depends on the manufacturing process. If You use milling out of solid alloy (like the new Apple laptops) - there is not much difference in quantity...

There is also another angle to consider - with huge quantities comes huge overheads in required customer and after-sales support and servicing. I don't think RED wants to walk in that extreme direction. I honestly expect the EPIC's to sell in hundreds or few thousands at the most, the RED ONE in thousands (maybe up to 10000 unit total) and the Scarlet to exceed tens of thousands, maybe hundreds. But I would not see Scarlet to go over a million units like some of the consumer cameras. But You never know... :devil:
 
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