Red Zooms - who is producing these lenses

[Emanuel A.]

You said all Stephen!

 

[Harry Lipnick]

Not to mention didn't I read somewhere that Red lenses are going to use "/i" technology. That's the metadata mechanism invented by, who else, Cooke. Of course they could have just liscenced the technology, but I'd say that sure adds some steam to the Cooke argument.
Peace,

-Harry

 

[laguun]

it will be quite interesting to see how much marketshare red optics will take in the 35mm domain.

if red successfully completes is manufacturing plan, they will be from #0 to #1 in 35mm cameras, probably for units and revenue. however, i doubt that this will become a hattrick and that they won´t repeat the same huge success with lenses, as a) there are many options besides red in lower and higher end, b) while the camera is somewhat revolutionary, the lenses so far mainly have a very good price/performance but don´t outclass the competition.

anyhow, whoever builts the lenses for red will have a nice expansion in units.

 

[PaulClements]

...the lenses so far mainly have a very good price/performance but don´t outclass the competition.

To be fair that's only speculation, other than the speed. There isn't any evidence either way. What's to say the glass won't outperform it's competition? Ok so spending $50-$60k on a zoom compared to $6-$9k shouts the latter would be poorer, yet here is a company that looks set to have built one of the best digital cinema cameras to date, and low and behold it costs 10x less than it's competitors. Furthermore many of those competitors laughed at the idea of a quality camera in that pricerange just as I'm sure many of the lens manufacturers laugh at the idea of quality lenses in that price range.

I'm not saying they are better, I'm simply not saying they are worse than anything out there because no one has evidence to suggest either way. You never know, if Red do to the lens market what they have done to the camera market there could be a few pissed off lens manufacturers, and if Cooke were wise enough to foresee Jim's intentions and jump on the bandwagon before the shit hit the fan then more credit to them.

 

[laguun]

To be fair that's only speculation, other than the speed. There isn't any evidence either way. What's to say the glass won't outperform it's competition?

if we assume that the optical quality of red lenses is excellent, and the few shots we have seen indicate this, the speeds, focal lenghts of red zooms and red primes are still below the competition of angenieux, cooke and zeiss.

The reds have 3x zoom, ranging 18-50 and 50-150, angenieux has many options more, 10x and 12x 35mm ranging 24-290, or the elder 25-250.
There are leightweight 26x zooms (7.8-208) at F2 and 40x zooms from them as well.

The red primes start at 1.9/2.8, the zeiss at 1.2/1.3.

Ok so spending $50-$60k on a zoom compared to $6-$9k shouts the latter would be poorer, yet here is a company that looks set to have built one of the best digital cinema cameras to date, and low and behold it costs 10x less than it's competitors. Furthermore many of those competitors laughed at the idea of a quality camera in that pricerange just as I'm sure many of the lens manufacturers laugh at the idea of quality lenses in that price range.

Don´t get me wrong - reds offers are excellent, but while the camera is better in techspecs and price, the lenses are only better in price, but not in techspecs.

I'm not saying they are better, I'm simply not saying they are worse than anything out there because no one has evidence to suggest either way.

The red lenses have an excellent price/performance, however they -are- worse in speed and range than the existing ultra-top-end.

You never know, if Red do to the lens market what they have done to the camera market there could be a few pissed off lens manufacturers, and if Cooke were wise enough to foresee Jim's intentions and jump on the bandwagon before the shit hit the fan then more credit to them.

I sure hope so, and already the announced lenses are great, however red doesn´t offer the maximum performance on the market for lenses, different from their camera.

 

[Evin Grant]

Speed doesn't always equal performance, and given Reds prodigious light gathering and low noise charachteristics, coupled with the daunting task of focusing 4K accurately you have to wonder if T1.3 is really that important any more? I have a feeling we'll all be shoting in the f4-5.6 range for all but lock offs. And even then f1.9/T2.1 should be plenty. I'll still have some fast Nikkors up my sleve but for bread and butter shooting the Red primes should be plenty fast. And BTW the top end Cooke S4 series are all T2.

 

[donatello b]

"however they -are- worse in speed and range than the existing ultra-top-end."

i sure wouldn't use the word "worse" - they are slower but that doesn't make them worse & they are shorter zooms then other zooms out there but that doesn't make em worse - only shorter ... if RED can deliver images at ASA 1000 then T3 & T2 ( or 2.1) doesn't seem so slow ... the red primes T stop are very close to the zeiss ultra primes, standard primes & cookes S4's ...

each zoom range has it's own like/dislike ... 18-50 vs. 18-100 ...i see like & dislike in either ...
24-290 great range (like) and then the weight (dislike) - strickly a tripod lens...for me, a must have AC carrying the whole camera w/lens ( you will not see me attempting to pick up camera/lens) ...

like the ang15-40mm and dislike the price ( including rental price) ...

lets not forget the minolta 17-35mm lens ( approx $1400 new) that was rehoused and sold for 23K - it's available at many of the big rental houses ..
does the 23k make it a much better image then when it was $1400 ?

if sony was marketing RED it would be priced alot higher then their F23 and we'd all be posting on the HVX or some other board.

many lens manufacturers buy there glass from the same manufacturers ..

remember Avid didn't lead the way to affordable NLE's .. they followed up out with several products to compete with FCP and other NLE's and drop prices all around ... IMO 35mm lens manufacturers will be dropping their price if they want to sell some lens to REDs ( us) ... ...

 

[PaulClements]

Evin and Donatello kind of summed up my thinking. The point of the Red lenses are that they are designed with the camera in mind. Perhaps they have forgone making the primes 1.2/1.3 because they can get better optical performance from the lens, less CA, less distortion etc etc, and they feel that the sensor's capabilities will allow for shooting in low light rather than relying on faster T stops.

Having more lens options is a fair point, but I dare say there are a great many films that could be shot with just the two zooms or prime set Red have announced. Furthermore I'd be suprised if Red stops after producing the current lineup.

Focal lengths of the shortest optimo and the Cooke CXX zooms are 15-40mm - Can one define them as better than the shortest Red zoom focal length because they are 3mm wider, even though the Red zoom gives you an extra 10mm?

My point still remains though because I don't personally rate a lens as being better purely because it has a faster T-Stop. Until the Red lenses are tested against others on the market saying they are better or worse is fruitless because no one knows.

My belief is that they would be hard pushed to better what is on the market, my hope is they will, but until I see trustworthy tests or I get to compare them side by side myself I will personally reserve judgement.

 

[laguun]

i sure wouldn't use the word "worse" - they are slower but that doesn't make them worse & they are shorter zooms then other zooms out there but that doesn't make em worse - only shorter ...

shorter and slower, than the existing options - however at much lower price as well.

if RED can deliver images at ASA 1000 then T3 & T2 ( or 2.1) doesn't seem so slow ... the red primes T stop are very close to the zeiss ultra primes, standard primes & cookes S4's ...

i agree, however, the master primes are between 0.7 and 1.6 f-stops faster, and thats my whole point: red offerings are great, but in lenses they are, specwise, not the best, only very good.

one example: when we talk with our customers about the camera, they are quite interested as the red one offers many unique advances in quality (4K), ergonomics (light, compact, no moving parts) and creativity (digital 120p @ 35mm dof). When we speak about the lenses, then there are no such breakthroughs, only very good, but not surpassing the competition - besides the excellent price.

each zoom range has it's own like/dislike ... 18-50 vs. 18-100 ...i see like & dislike in either ...
24-290 great range (like) and then the weight (dislike) - strickly a tripod lens...

the 25-250 then would be the lens of choice, at ~4kg , while the 24-290 is at ~11kg.

for me, a must have AC carrying the whole camera w/lens ( you will not see me attempting to pick up camera/lens) ...

yeah, the 7.8-203f2.2 (1.86kg) has become our workhorse for these scenarios.

lets not forget the minolta 17-35mm lens ( approx $1400 new) that was rehoused and sold for 23K - it's available at many of the big rental houses ..
does the 23k make it a much better image then when it was $1400 ?

i think we will basicly see four segments in the market:
a) photoglass, rehoused/assisted by peripherals for the best bargain
b) s16 & 2/3 for highspeed 60/120p as well as handheld & eng
c) 35mm regular use, i suppose here will be the sweetspot for red (and used 35mm glass)
d) 35mm top-end/budget doesn´t matter class, i suppose zeiss/angenieux/cooke will be remaining dominant there for quite some time.

if sony was marketing RED it would be priced alot higher then their F23 and we'd all be posting on the HVX or some other board.

Having invested $$$.$$$ in complete hdcam workflows from lens/cameras/nles/vcrs/class 1 monitors, i agree.
However there are many buyers of red i know who don´t upgrade from hvx, but crossgrade from 35mm and/or hdcam - and those are the ones which often already have excellent glass in use and/or possession.

remember Avid didn't lead the way to affordable NLE's .. they followed up out with several products to compete with FCP and other NLE's and drop prices all around ... IMO 35mm lens manufacturers will be dropping their price if they want to sell some lens to REDs ( us) ... ...

I wish you are right, however, i suppose that a large chunk of the commercial market demand will stay with the "best of the best" lens category if the difference is only $.$$$ or $$.$$$. AE/combustion/shake/fusion/nuke/color/speedgrade etc do exist, but so do smoke/flame, ds, scratch/clipster, pablo/iq etc.

for the last 10-15% performance, you usually pay 100-150% more, and these markets do exist, especially in moviemaking.

Furthermore,
- many of the top-lens manufacturers are sold out on their top 35mm product lines (angenieux for sure is) at the current price point and would make less profit -and- revenue when lowering prices
- many rental houses have existing 35mm lenses, which have been paid for and can react with rental prices, if price and not specs decide the deal
- better f/t-stops results often in less necessary light, so a faster lens often is cheaper to rent than the additional light
- DPs can be pretty conservative: shooting digital, electronic viewfinders etc are still a mayor change some of them in their working experience, so expect many DPs who "at least" want to stay with -exactly- the lens they know/want/are used to.

 

[laguun]

My belief is that they would be hard pushed to better what is on the market, my hope is they will, but until I see trustworthy tests or I get to compare them side by side myself I will personally reserve judgement.

yeah - i am only talking techspecs right now, and judgement day is when serial production red lenses can be evaluated.

 

[Costelloe Michael]

My money is on Jim and Les Zellan setting up a UK based Red Lens company which uses the skills and expertise of Cooke employees for mutual benefit. That way Cooke can say they are not making the lenses and not offend their client base with a cheaper lens set and Jim and Co. can tentatively link Cooke to their lens production. Best of both worlds no one gets stung.

Paul,

This is a really good point. With the fall of VFG last year and the amalgamation of Sammies and several other companies into PV over the preceeding years there were an awful lot of previously staff lense technicians floating around. It would be easy to put a 'sideline company' together to increase productivity :wink:

Maybe the fact that they are slower than the 'top quality' competition points to the marketing needs of the company that make them. By this I mean that if you wanted cheaper lenses buy Red, but if you want faster lenses buy Cooke! That way you don't replicate your market, if Cooke are involved that is!

BTW As far as Zeiss super speeds are concerned, who make there lenses to T1.3 I love the way they flare, if that's the look I'm after, but give me slower S4's at T2 anyday.

Mike C

 

[Costelloe Michael]

Hey Donatello,


Don't underestimate the ability of the market to stick it's head in the sand and work off perceived status. Skoda are owned by VW but I know which one would be more popular and that's not down to price.

Have you ever used the Frazier lense? A very specialised lense that earnt it's maker academy status for it's design. BUT you should see the look on the technician's faces when it comes out on commercials. Hundred's of thousands of £'s of kit, full crane rigs, 35mm cameras, steadicam etc, and this lense is supplied with standard still's lenses on the front of the Frazier attachment! :whistling:

Red seems to be creating a market for people who either want to step up from HDV and are sort of 'prosumers' by definition and a core of HD ready industry professionals who want to be free from the limitations of the larger companies' marketing strategies, DCT etc. I think the rest of the industry will stand by and watch the spectacle unfold, whilst hammering away at alternative strategies in the backrooms to exploit this market!

Mike C

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses.
People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned.

Stephen

 

[martinnoweck]

Paul,

That's your job.
If you "popped" in thru my front door with the expression on your face in your avatar I'd probally tell you anything you wanted to know! lol

Chuck

LOL
martin

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi,

High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses.
People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned.

Stephen

Yes. Your right.
Also there was this f-stop, t-stop debate... It all depends where RED wants to position their lenses in the market. Since a Red zoom is very short in range compared to ENG zooms they are not build for ENG. Even for highend documentary I find the ranges to short. A S16/HD option will be more satisfying.

Feature film (cinema / TV), commercials, high end corporate, this is the typical range of application for RED lenses, zooms and primes. Of course, there is the independet filmmaker but this market is small and not "rich" at all. They will find RED lenses expensive and might go the photo lens route.

Thus, RED lenses have to face Zeiss, Cooke and Angenieux in a market which is used to expensive high-end glas and where people usually rent - so the price of the lenses relativise but performance not.

Since choosing a lens is a very personal, creative decision I will wait with any comment on quality, usability, look and feel until I worked with them.

Generally it's great to have a new kid on the block, might become your best friend!


Hans

 

[Emanuel & Co]

Of course, there is the independet filmmaker but this market is small and not "rich" at all. They will find RED lenses expensive and might go the photo lens route.

Yes, but this will be a natural market for the RED zoom lenses granted its typical purchaser.

Its share will be more than 51%, that is, more than everyone else including high-end (used to rent not to buy).

That's for sure!

 

[laguun]

Yes, but this will be a natural market for the RED zoom lenses granted its typical purchaser.
Its share will be more than 51%, that is, more than everyone else including high-end (used to rent not to buy).
That's for sure!

Possible, and i wish Red all success in reaching an excellent marketshare with their lenses as well. In the 35mm camera segment they became marketleader overnight.

However, i wouldn´t even bet on 20% 35mm optical yet.

It -might- be different, if red decides to sell all/most of their primes single, not only the 300mm. $20.000 is certainly to much for many of the fellow redusers who are moving up from the hdv/dvcpro hd/p2 segment.

furthermore it will be -highly- interesting to see which quality the 2/3 optical adapter offers. If this solution offers a good or even excellent image, then many buyers (the ones who extend from hdcam/viper/varicams) will have lenses from the getgo.

Another quite deciding point is how panavision will decide to face the challenge. If they decide to embrace Red (if you can´t beat them, join´em) as they already did with hdcam & sony, and "panavise" the Reds mount, there will be a -huge- inventory of panavision glass available for rental.

 

[laguun]

Hi,
High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses.
Stephen

You are right, however some of the actual angenieux cinema lenses do still breathe quite a bit...

People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned.

The ENG people, and highly experienced motion picture DP/AC teams who started working in 60/ties/70ties/80ties/90ties seem somewhat more unimpressed by breathing.

 

[Stephen Williams]

You are right, however some of the actual angenieux cinema lenses do still breathe quite a bit...


The ENG people, and highly experienced motion picture DP/AC teams who started working in 60/ties/70ties/80ties/90ties seem somewhat more unimpressed by breathing.

Hi,

Shorter Motion Picture Zooms 5:1 or less tend to have very little breathing. 10:1 and longer tend to breath rather more.

They may be unimpressed with ENG style lenses, but they buy them because they are short & light.
I had the dubious pleasure of testing a F900R with an ENG zoom for a pitch I was shooting last night. I ended up getting out a film camera, even if I have to pay some money myself for processing I want to win! The other DP pitching is shooting on HDV.

Stephen

 

[laguun]

Hi,
Shorter Motion Picture Zooms 5:1 or less tend to have very little breathing. 10:1 and longer tend to breath rather more.

yeah.
we mainly have the longer angenieux and they do breathe. not terrible, but they do.

They may be unimpressed with ENG style lenses, but they buy them because they are short & light.
I had the dubious pleasure of testing a F900R with an ENG zoom for a pitch I was shooting last night.

most of the recent movies and work we have done has a high or even mayor share of eng/efp lenses. the imagequality of those efp/eng lenses has become pretty good, and that is the cruicial point for us. here and there digiprimes are used, but meanwhile we mostly use the zooms.

its one of the reasons why we are very interested in red and digital 35mm - finally we can use our 16/35mm PL glass again for the mayority of our work, which has become digital and saw 35mm film fading into minority.

I ended up getting out a film camera, even if I have to pay some money myself for processing I want to win! The other DP pitching is shooting on HDV.
Stephen

fingers crossed, hopefully the client will have a decent monitoring to spot the weaknesses in the hdv footage.